Which would have been a better Ally to Germany?

Turkey without a doubt

Spain contributes little strategically that France or Italy Doesn’t.

Turkey opens a second flank on Russia, pressures the middle east and North Africa.

It’s not even close.

This is going to be a lengthy post so bare with me.  All the points listed before about Turkey are valid.  It would have been to the Germans advantage with Turkey to push another front with Russia, secure Middle East oil, and deprive Britain of that oil.  But why not have 2 for one.  Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall’s main concern at the beginning of Operation Torch was an Axis push through Spain.  After we secured Morocco, Algiers, and Oran we ran into a stalemate with the Germans at Medjez-el-Bab.  Due to inexperienced US forces and the loosely integrated formation of British and US units, the Germans under Colonel-General Hans-Jurgen von Arnim pushed the Allies almost out of Tunisia in their push to Tunis.  Why was this?  Along with the deficiencies listed above, Marshall urged Ike to leave some of his best commanders at the rear (like Generals Patton, Allen, and Roosevelt) in fear of an Axis strike from Spain.  Previous to this, it was US military consensus to enter the war with Operation Sledgehammer (which was later used for D-Day June 6 '44). Churchill greatly disapproved this, so the British urged an invasion of Northern Africa to set up an invasion of the soft under-belly of Europe.  US military doctrine at the time called for direct action at the enemies strongest point.  The British still reelling from European theater failure highly disapproved of such a maneuver.  So Operation Torch was was approved at the stalwart  pleas of the British.  The initial invasion was plagued with many debacles and failures.  Operations RESERVIST and TERMINAL were absolute disasters during the landings of Oran and Algiers.  Inexperieced coxswains and boat commanders lost many men just trying to get to shore during the landings at Fedalla in Morocco.  Patton’s own boat capsized  just prior to landing on the beach due to operational inadequacies (US naval personnel were unprepared to deal with adverse Atlantic waters.) Many ships and transports were lost at the hands of mediocre French Naval arms. The Jean-Bart, a French battlecruiser, sunk a few ships even though it was operationally beached at port in Morocco by simply pointing its guns from shore to the enemy. The Allies were only able to take  and secure the landings due to insufficient French military strength, most of which were French Senegalese troops.  Even at that the French resistance was still able to tally a fair amount of Allied casualties.  In regards to that, had the Germans been able to acquire Axis military control in Spain, they most certainly would have taken Gibralter and closed the Med. The Allies would at that point still face two choices:  Operation TORCH or SLEDGEHAMMER. Had the Allies still went ahead with TORCH with German control of the Strait of Gibralter, our inexperienced Navy would have meet strong German naval resistance and German air supremacy in the landings, and would have most likely been greatly demoralized.  A serious setback would have greatly delayed an Allied rebottle.  This in effect would have given Axis military in Africa and Rommel a lot of breathing room to destroy the 8th army in Egypt and push to the Middle East with out even having to negotiate an alliance with Turkey. If the Allies chose option b (SLEDGEHAMMER) and accepted Axis control of the Med in this situation, our inexperienced forces coupled with untested battle cooperation with the British would have been thrown into the teeth of fortress Europe and you would have seen a D-Day invasion of France in late '42 early '43. The results of which I cannot bear to imagine.  In a historical sense, operation TORCH as it really played out in history, gave our soldiers and forces much needed battle prepping for the eventual dangers to come in the landings of Sicily, Italy, ad France.  Had the Axis had control of the Med and Gibralter history may have been gravely altered.  A simple alliance with Turkey would have still open the door for the Allies in Northern Africa.

It depends on when either Turkey or Spain would have declared war.  If Spain declared war on sept 1 1939 than it would be by far the better of the 2.  If it declared war on june 22 1941 it really wouldn’t have mattered.  An early Spanish entry into the war would have seen Gibralter fall almost immediatly IMO, which would have damaged England almost to the point of irrelevence from trade alone.  Than take into account that the battle in Africa would have almost def. been won by Rommel with England starving at home, and Rommel having undisturbed convoys giving him supplies.  Had he pushed through Egypt most middle eastern countries were sympathetic to the Germans (because they hated the British so much) and it would have been an easy conquest.  More importantly, if done in a timely fashion could have threatened Russia’s southern front by the time barbarossa took place.  Which would have distracted Russian forces their western front or lose the Caucus.  Not to mention a German force in the Middle East would have been a threat to India and caused the British to have to defend in the west while still getting hit by Japan in the east.  You could even argue with gains like this, and fighting side by side with the Germans… at this point Turkey may have joined anyway.

I have always thought that the Germans not taking Gibralter was a horrible mistake (militarily of course, thank god they lost).  That one asset was worth more than the entire Italian military combined.

@Zooey72:

That one asset was worth more than the entire Italian military combined.

That’s not saying much…… :-D

@ABWorsham:

The Turks would have a hard time slowing an attack of T-34s supported by seasoned Red Army troops. Could Germany afford to supply another ally with modern weaponary without jeopardizing their own front lines?

I don’t think that Germany would really need to supply Turkey with anything. Sure, Turkey’s weapons were pretty outdated, but as long as there were able to get some troops into the Middle East and Southern Russia it would’ve been game over for the Allied oil reserves

I’d say drop Japan as an ally and pick up both Spain AND Turkey, preferably before Pearl Harbor, but that’s just me.  :-P

yea thats good , but Turkey at least would not do it unless Rommel broke out in the middle east and they isolated Turkey, “influencing them by other means”

That is a good one Gibraltar or the Dardenelles.  Turkey would be a great starting point for a variety of operations:  oil, the canal, underbelly of the USSR.

the turks were too tired after WWI to do much. Russia has never been a very fun enemy to have

Definitely Spain.

They could have taken Gibraltar and defended against the Normandy invasion so Germany could have concentrated on Russia as Turkey would not have been much help.

Don’t forget the muslim country as Iran, Iraq, Egypt.
The british troops stopped the rebellion just in time.

In 1941, on the eastern front, people of Ukraine, Lithuania, Caucasus and Estonia have welcomed the German soldiers as liberators.
If Hitler had understood the situation he would have probably won the war.

Umm, the people of Cairo were scared that Italy would take Egypt.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Umm, the people of Cairo were scared that Italy would take Egypt.

Italy’s Italy
Germany’s Germany

@ABWorsham:

@Brain:

Definitely Spain.

They could have taken Gibraltar and defended against the Normandy invasion so Germany could have concentrated on Russia as Turkey would not have been much help.

Well said.

+1
Its no fun fighting a war on your doorstep and the Turks would of had that issue the moment they declared war on the Soviets. If the tide turned against the Turks they would of been too worried about protecting their own territory to truly go on the offensive and be of any great consequence. As for the Spanish taking Gibraltar would given the Axis control over the Western Mediterranean and would of made taking Malta a much more easy affair. Also it would of cut off Britain from an easy route to India and Australia, perhaps even causing a nationalist revolution in India. The Afrika corp would of been a much more effective fighting force also as the supply convoys from southern Italy and Sicily wouldnt be continually harassed by RAF fighters flying out of Malta.

Perhaps Spanish soldiers doing most of the occupation and defence duties in France would of freed up enough German troops to of win the war on the Eastern Front. Although that would of left Spain open to invasion also and the allies may very well of taken advantage of that especially if Gibraltar was up for grabs.

_Umm, the people of Cairo were scared that Italy would take Egypt. _
Yes the British citizen and other allies citizen was scared but not the muslim or egyptian.
There was anti-british current in egypt same as in Iran,Iraq and India.

Turkey definently would had helped Hitler capture the oil fields they desperately needed.

I chose Spain. They would of helped if not prevented D-day and operation torch.
Witch both opened up another front, splitting Germany forces.

Even if Germany got both Turkey and Spain as allies, it wouldn’t be enough to win the war unless Germany chose another strategy after invading Poland.