Germany to Africa, how?

Re: What if you were Hitler

I always think about this!

What I would do depends on the time period, although in all scenarios I would let the generals focus on the details and I will focus on the bigger picture, along with minimising all atrocities and repealing all anti semitic laws and bringing Jews to work in industry and the military to increase my bargaining position and strength. Total war, the mobilisation of all resources for the war effort, will be declared as early as possible. The big projects, such as the Maus, Ratte, Lowe, the ME 262 jet fighter, the V-2, V-1, V-3, and other rocket projects, as well as other Wunderwaffe, as these were too new, would have had many technological problems (like in real life), and whilst the US could invest in such new technologies, Germany couldn’t when fighting a multiple front war, with fewer resources, and most of the fighting taking place on the Eastern Front, where the completed Wunderwaffe were never used. Finally, the E series of tanks would be built as early as possible. I will only build the E-75 Standardpanzer, as powerful as a Tiger Two, but much cheaper and less complicated to build and maintain, and the E-25 Jagdpanzer. I will change Enigma codes regularly to make it harder to defeat the U-boats, which I will do with all the scenarios here. Another thing I will do in all scenarios is to create an anti aircraft defence like the British did to defend against bombing attacks.

1939: I’ll let the Polish campaign as it is, and don’t invade Scandinavia. This way, Chamberlain would stay in power during the Battle Of France, and when Churchill rises, he would be in them middle of a crisis than at the beginning, and coupled with the encirclement and destruction of the BEF, sue for peace with Britain. After that, don’t declare war on the US, and go all in on the Soviet Union. I would also recruit the Soviet population to fight for Germany. Many people in the Soviet Union hated Stalin and were more than happy to overthrow the Soviet government. Two examples in real life were the defection of a Soviet regiment and a request from officials from Smolensk after the capture of the city, to create a Russian Liberation Army. I will say that they should join Germany, I will have them treated as nicely as possible, create self governing regions, create local forces to eliminate a lot of partisan activity. As for the German navy, I would finish the Seydlitz and Graf Zepplin, and use the German surface fleet to engage in a massive battle with the Royal Navy to lower British morale. I would also let the navy develop their own branch of land based aircraft for more coordination. I would also do this for the 1941 scenario.

Beginning of 1941: Go straight up to Franco and the leaders of Turkey and tell them that they have to join the Axis or be invaded. Don’t invade the Soviet Union yet, and strike a good deal with Vichy France-I will probably mediate so that Italy and Spain get what they want from French North Africa, and give Vichy France as compensation large amounts of Sub-Saharan Africa that Italy doesn’t want. With a full push in the Mediterranean, the British would not help Greece out, capturing Tripoli, but allowing the Germans to move into Tunisia and push the British back into Libya, hopefully crossing the Egyptian border by the end of 1941. Whilst all of this is happening, an airborne invasion of Malta, with Crete not garrisoned, will be launched, and after the capture of Gibraltar through Spain, will ensure the safe supply of resources to Africa. More German troops (possibly an entire Panzer Army), along with Vichy forces, would raise Italian morale. More oil will be allocated for the Italian navy, raising morale. By 1942, the Axis would have pushed through into the Middle East, and a peace treaty should be signed as soon as possible with Britain-even if the Middle East is safe in British hands, a southern front against the Soviets can still be launched through Turkey. I will order the construction of the E-series tanks as fast as possible, but only two types: the Jagdpanzer E-25 tank destroyer, and the E-75 Standard Panzer, as powerful as the Tiger Two, but much cheaper, simpler, and easier to produce. I will not declare war on the US, and by 1942 or 1943, launch Operation Barborossa, and despite more Soviet T-34s and KV-1s and 2s, and more preparations and alertness, the power of the E-75, additional Turkish, Vichy French, Italian, and Spanish forces, bombardment by the Italian navy in the Black Sea, German forces not needed from the Mediterranean, and the opening of a southern front through Turkey would make victory much more likely. I would also recruit the Soviet population, as shown above. By the end of 1944, the Axis should have captured Moscow, and Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia should be independent countries, and all the nations of Eastern Europe should be united by an alliance, headed by Germany. The Vichy French navy is a powerful force and can wreak havoc in the Mediterranean, which can be used with the Italian navy later in the war in the Black Sea.

Beginning of 1942: I would invade Malta before Rommel’s invasion with paratrooper forces I will try to rebuild as fast as possible (not sacrificing quality, of course). Germany should launch an offensive towards the Caucasus, and not invade Stalingrad. The original plan for Operation Case Blue should be followed as shown below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Blue

Hopefully Rommel will succeed in North Africa, which he can then turn his attention against the American Operation Torch landings. Again, I will try to convince Spain, Vichy France, and Turkey to join the war, to make the Middle East more accessible and link up with the Axis in the Caucausus. Again, I will recruit the Soviet population, and despite lots of atrocities being committed, there still can be hope. Hopefully, with a more successful 1942 summer offensive, a peace deal can be achieved. The Graf Zepplin should be completed, as should the Seydlitz. I would do the Channel Dash as in real life, and use all large German ships to be stationed in Norway (including repairing the Gneisenau), and use them to attack Allied convoys. As many ships as possible should be committed for a single operation at once for maximum effect, and to be able to destroy more Allied naval units to gain a better peace treaty.

Late 1942: I will not invade Kursk, instead using those forces to defend on the Eastern Front, recruit the Soviet population (which will still be willing despite large amounts of atrocities occurring), and order the Sixth Army to break out during Operation Winter Storm, hopefully escaping. As Army Group A would not be able to capture anything significant anyway, it should be used to help breaking the encirclement. As many Axis forces in Tunisia should be evacuated as possible, hopefully delaying the Italian surrender. The plan for the German navy would be the same as in early 1942. As the Allies would probably win the Battle Of The Atlantic by now, I would abandon submarine production by summer 1943.

Early 1944: I would propose a fantastic peace deal to the Western Allies, where I would give up the entire Kriegsmarine, give the “10 Countries”: Luxembourg, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Albania, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Italy, and Norway. Poland will still be under control by Germany, due to the connection with the rest of Eastern Europe. The puppet states of Croatia and the Italian Social Republic will be dissolved, and the Western Allies can influence all of these countries to their liking. If that fails, I would also give the Allies “The Extra Offer Of 5 Countries”: Bulgaria, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, and Latvia. These countries can be influenced on the same terms as the first 10, and the puppet state of Slovakia will be dissolved. My only demand with all of these countries is that they should remain neutral in my war with the Soviet Union. Once the peace treaty has been signed, I would then move all of Germany’s mechanised forces to the Belarus, until I have 30 mechanised divisions there, ready to counter Operation Bagration. Hopefully the attack is stopped, and then I can move my mechanised forces southwards to counter Soviet offensives there as well. Hopefully, with my superior tanks, as powerful as the Tiger Two, but available in more numbers and having less mechanical breakdowns, and the entire Luftwaffe being able to concentrate on the Eastern Front, and resources used from naval production, I can defeat the Soviets and sign a peace treaty.

That’s because each nation during WWII learned different lessons during that war. USSR build their tanks to be cheap because they know they will lose equipment and men. They accept that losing soldiers is going to happen so they tend to use numbers to gain the edge, however they haven’t needed to do this since WWII. The last tried this in Afgan and it didn’t work so well.

The US can’t take loses for $hit, so we try to destroy you from the air, far way, as fast as possible and units that are designed to be in your face while fighting are armored up.

@CWO:

@Hobbes:

@RedArmySoldier:

So it’s either ‘join together vs Russkieland’, or ‘fall together’.

Isn’t this what happened in real life?

Not really. In the last days of the war in Europe, the Nazis entertained all kinds of fantasies that the Anglo-Americans would come to their senses and would team up with them to fight the barbarous Soviet hordes, but it never happened.  The Soviet/Anglo-American alliance held together until the surrender of Germany, and indeed until the surrender of Japan: Stalin fulfilled his prior commitment to go to war against Japan three months after Germany surrendered (the time which had been allocated for him to shift some of his forces from Europe to the Far East).  Germany surrendered on May 7, and the USSR invaded Manchuria almost exactly on schedule on August 9.  In Europe, the Soviet, American and British armies all settled into the occupation zones which had been defined ahead of time for each power.  The predefined occupation zones were even respected where the fighting had taken the Americans into areas assigned to the Russians (such as Leipzig) and the Russians into areas assigned to the Anglo-Americans (such as parts of Austria, and of course the western half of Berlin).

Yeah, but afterwards the West set up the ‘denazification’ because they needed the former Nazis to run West Germany, while taking a blind eye to both the fascist regimes of Portugal and Spain since they were anti-communist as well, and had no problems in supporting dictatorships everywhere to prevent the communists from taking power.

@morrel:

russia didn’t border Czechoslovakia so direct support would have been through air power or invasion of someone else most likely         This was prior to the winter war with finland    I wonder how effective russian help would have been?

Russia didn’t border Spain either, but that didn’t stop them from sending a lot of tanks and planes to support the Republicans. But as in Finland, the russian help was not very effective. The russian “political officers” spent more time in purging western commies that had joined the International Brigade, than to fight the fascists. And unlike the Germans, the russian officers never learned any lesson in Spain.

would it not be better keeping producing Panzer III and IV and keep on developing new Support Tanks etc like Hummel, Nashorn, Wirbelwind, kugelblitz etc.?…It would have been far better to satisfy the needs of the troops instead of longing for bigger tanks.
The Panzer IV was maybe not equal to all the counterparts of the allied tanks but further development of panzer III and IV´s and increasing production of it would be better in the long run!..E series might have been better and easier in production but it is not guaranteed that it would satisfy the need!
I dare even to say that a 5cm gun for panzer III series and a 7,5-cm-KwK 40 L/43 for the Panzer IV´s would have made a big diffrence!
In the end the Panzer IV was the backbone of all Panzerdivisions to the end of the war…

Still pretty decisive. Imagine if it had lasted 10 days instead of 1. :-o

Read “world war 2 behind closed doors” by laurence rees

There was a secret part in the treaty between the french, british and poles which the brits and the french promised military assistance against a German attack not a Soviet attack and remember they did not help in the war between the poles in the soviets in late 1910’s and early 1920’s but instead suggested the curzon line (which the Molotov-Ribbentrop line basicly followed)

Also the soviets at Tehran were more interested in soviet post war borders than they were in actually winning the war and remember in 1943 this was not a certainty. They wanted to keep there pre 1941 gains.

This is just a brief overview of some othe parts of the book I suggest you read it. It is very good.

The brits and the french could have attacked the siegfried line before the germans finished it and probably would have been succesful and because they did not co-operate with the Belgium people (I don’t know the correct word) and the dutch because the later two did not want to appear co-operating with the allies because at that time they were neutral. The Germans had a brilliant strategy in attacking (the aaa territory North West Europe) and then following nit up with the tank drive through the ardennes they cut of the Elite French and British troops from the rest of the army. They shouldn’t have allowed Dunkirk and should have forced the British and French into the sea and this would come back to haunt them.

And it is a big difference if those German ships are new (build in 1939, or something), because a lot of British ships were older then that.