Subs and Destroyers

Hey guys,

Been thinking of ways to make naval warfare more enticing in AA1914.

I think it is an opportunity to give something unique to both sides, so here’s what I was thinking.

For the Entente (Allies) : Freighters. You can build 1 per 8 land IPC you command, costs 3 IPC, 2 movement speed. Every time it ends its turn either next to a neutral country worth 2 IPCs or more or in the naval base of one of your allies (not your own), you gain 2 IPCs.

For the CPs (Axis):

Restricted Sub Warfare : Active from the game’s onset, on the British turn, every CP sub in sea zones 2, 7 and 8 roll and on a 3 or less, 1 IPC is deduced from the UK’s income. Unrestricted Sub Warfare : Active when declared by Germany. Same as above except that it applies to the UK and the US’ turns and every sub in those areas are automatic hits and 1 IPC is deduced. The Entente may remove one roll for every surface warship in those zones. Merchant Raiders : 3 IPCs, movement speed of 2. They are stealthy and can therefore sail past blockading enemies like subs do. Every turn they end up adjacent to an enemy territory, that enemy loses 1 IPC. If the territory is worth 2 IPCs or more, the lost IPC is instead transferred to the raider’s owner. Only 1 IPC per raider may be deducted and gained this way. To sink the raider, the Entente must send ships in that area to find it. Instead of normal combat, the Entente declares which ships is on “raider” duty. He gets 1 point per ship sent and then rolls a die. If the number rolled is equal to or less than the number of ships sent, the raider is found and destroyed (so if 3 ships are sent on patrol, a roll of 3 or less destroys the ship). He gets only one roll per turn. The CPs may only have one raider per 6 land IPCs they own.

I think this could make naval combat more fun and significant in the game, especially for the CPs who could see value in trying to take command of the seas or force the Allies to chase them around. On the Entente side, it would give some countries (Italy, USA particularly) a shot at boosting their IPCs and decide if they play the long economic game at the risk of lacking armies.

Let me know what you think !

I finally found a different HR intended to fix Subs vs planes:
@deslock:

IMO, subs are too weak if they can’t be used as defending fodder (I know some other user agree as I read posts complaining about this).  To illustrate, suppose USA approaches Japan with an invasion force and Japan strikes first:

Japan (attacker):
8 ftr
2 bmb

USA (defender):
2 CV
4 ftr
8 sub
2 dd
4 trn

The rules are fairly clear that in this battle the USA can’t choose to take subs as losses, which means Japan has a ~90% chance of victory (killing everything except for the subs).  I’m contemplating a house rule that states:

Defending subs can be hit by any air/sea units regardless of whether or not an attacking DD is present.  However, if no enemy DD is present, the subs may submerge before any rolling.  If subs attack and no defending DD is present, then defending air units can’t hit subs (even when they’re on the surface).

(I believe that the last two sentences are how it already works, but I included them with the house rule for clarity)

This way subs’ current capabilities are preserved, but they can now be used as defending fodder. Does that seem reasonable to the more experienced players here or does it throw off the game mechanics? (I’ve only played AA50 a couple times)

And there is also this thread about how to limit the DDs vs Subs ratio (same problem):
http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6367

The destroyers came with the Central Powers set which is sold out and as far as I know, Jack does not plan to make anymore right now. You may find some on Ebay or here, but there are none left on Fair Play Games…

@lnmajor:

how about this?
place a roundel under a sub on the board to signify its submerged. it can only move 1 space per turn submerged. you must use ASW search roll of 1-2 to detect sub from destroyer or cruiser. surfaced sub can move 2 spaces per turn. ASW roll is 1-4 when sub is surfaced. now, on second turn, if sub remains submerged put second roundel under sub. beggining of 3rd turn submerged sub must surface for 1 turn no matter where it is. even if it has to surface strait into hostile ships and be attacked.

not a bad idea. The one benefit to having them off the board is the surprise factor.

Great ideas though…

yea i added in planes as attackers but if non transports are in the sea zone, they must attack as normal as per OOB.

all destroyers and cruiser may fire an ASW attack roll or normal combat roll, regardless of submarine detection

in your example effectively all 4 ships can fire ASW attack roll at the 1 detected submarine

@Bierwagen:

Hey Axis_Roll – where can I find more discussion on the AARE ruleset?

The rules are a sticky here in A&A.org in this house rules section.
Much more discussion of Enhanced rules and game in progress are at the Gleemax/WOTC site: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=747

Unfortunately, the powers that be at WOTC have choosen to end Gleemax sometime in September.  This comes less than one year after they shut down new posts from the OLD AH boards.  http://boards.avalonhill.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29

There’s lots of good discussions back on the AH boards.

Some would not mind marking up a board.

I do not agree with the mandatory surfacing part of this variation. Some subs remained virtually undetected on their voyages in the war. But the best way to win is to use them (make them appear.)KILL! :wink:

For #s on the szs (sea zones), he/you could use

labels that can be purchased at any office supply store, or a clear plastic sheet with the #s written on it and board corner marks (on the plastic) to know where to situate the sheet over the board, or a masterlist of sea sones.

I’ve used, and currently have some on my board, Avery brand 1/4" round color coding labels which come in a roll. They are very small and can be ignored if you want to play a regular game between trial runs. :)