Some historical reasons about StB capacity to make ASW:
The Liberators made a great contribution to Allied victory in the Battle of the Atlantic against German U-boats. The decision to allocate some Liberator Is to Coastal Command in 1941 to patrol the eastern Atlantic Ocean produced immediate results. The Very Long Range (VLR) Liberators “almost doubled the reach of Britain’s maritime reconnaissance force”.[24] This extended range enabled Coastal Command patrols to cover part of the mid-Atlantic gap, where U-boats had operated without risking being attacked and sunk by Allied aircraft.[25]
For 12 months, No. 120 Squadron RAF of Coastal Command with its handful of much-patched and modified early model Liberators, supplied the only air cover for convoys in the Atlantic Gap, the Liberator being the only warplane with sufficient range. The VLR Liberators sacrificed some armor and often gun turrets in order to save weight, while carrying extra aviation gasoline in their bomb-bay tanks. Liberator Is were equipped with ASV (Air to Surface Vessel) Mark II radar, which together with the Leigh light gave them the ability to hunt U-boats by day and by night.
These Liberators operated from both sides of the Atlantic with the Royal Canadian Air Force and the U.S. Navy from the west; and with the RAF from the east, based in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Iceland, and beginning in mid-1943 from the Azores. This role was dangerous, especially after many U-boats were armed with extra anti-aircraft guns, some adopting the policy of staying on the surface to fight, rather than submerging and risking being sunk by ASW (anti-submarine warfare) torpedoes and depth charges from the bombers. In addition to flying from the East Coast of the United States, American Liberators flew from Greenland, the Azores, Bermuda, the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Trinidad, and from wherever else they could fly far out over the Atlantic.
The rather sudden and decisive turning of the Battle of the Atlantic in favor of the Allies in May 1943 was the result of many factors. However, it was no accident that it coincided with the long delayed arrival of many more VLR Liberators for maritime patrols. Liberators were credited in full or in part with 72 U-boat sinkings.
Behold the Power of Yavid
http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9150&start=16
Keep all OOB, except no need of DD for planes.
VERSION A
Aircraft can hit submarines under this limitation:
Planes cannot hit any subs if their is any other eligible combat unit casualty.
Said otherwise, Subs are chosen last by planes, then transports, as a non-combat unit, are chosen last.
Destroyer still cancel Submerge and First Strike, and block sub movement.
OPTIONS
For those which see the issue about Destroyers this way:
@mikecool70:
I think that destroyers are overpowered since one destroyer can negate an unlimited number of submarine special abilities as well as allow an unlimited number of planes to attack all the submarines in a single sea zone.
Perhaps each destroyer should be limited to negating ONE submarine’s special abilities as well as allow planes to attack ONE submarine.
This would force the player to buy more destroyers in response to the enemy buying a bunch of subs.
I have no idea how this would play out in an actual game, so who knows if its a good idea or not.
But under this limitation to Destroyer capabilities:
OPTION 1: each Destroyer cancel Submerge and First Strike of up to 2 Submarines. 2*X DDs= number of subs.
So 2 DDs cancels 4 Subs, 3 DDs cancel 6 Subs, etc.
Rationalization:
Destroyer class naval unit can “screen” out one warship at a 1:1 basis. So, basically any 1 DD unit can screen from Subs another unit and itself. Hence, 1 DD unit can block 2 Subs units.
Almost same idea from Wild Bill here but DD still needed for planes:
http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6280
OPTION 2: each Destroyer cancel Submerge and First Strike of 1 submarine + 1 additional unit (for the whole group of DDs) . X DDs +1= number of subs.
So 2 DDs cancels 3 Subs, 3 DDs cancel 4 Subs, 4 DDs cancel 5 Subs, etc.
Results for Subs in excess:
All other extra subs can pick casualties amongst any units and this unit cannot retaliate, as OOB for First Strike.
Version A + OPTION 3 (and can be in addition to option 1): Wolf-pack effect on transport.
When a sub-only force of at least 3 Subs attack an enemy fleet, if any Sub can get a hit, then take also 1 Transport unit (if any is present) as casualty, this is in addition to any other naval casualties. (A sub-only force can take at most 1 transport casualty per round.)
What do you think of Version A, by itself? (in which Subs will be less potent than OOB (because in many usual OOB situations planes would have kill them but can’t without DD, now subs will be picked as casualty.)
Or version A with either Option 1 or 2? (in which some Subs can sometimes be able to get a Surprise Strike against DDs and warships.)
Version A + OPTION 4:
Destroyer cancel Sub Submerge for the first round only.
Subs have to endure at least 1 round of combat if a DD is present, but not multiple rounds.
This option 4 imply that any attacking air unit with DD against a sub-only force get only 1 round to target and destroy subs units in a SZ before they submerge (if subs chose to).
It is a way to fix this issue brought here:
@knp7765:
@SgtBlitz:
It’d also be nice to see if subs could retreat if they survive an initial attack by a destroyer, their 1 defense is pitiful and they need some method of escape.
I whole-heartedly agree with this. I’ve never liked the idea that subs can NOT submerge with an enemy destroyer present. I’m fine with destroyers preventing the surprise strike and letting aircraft hit subs, but keeping them from submerging is a load of crap. Submarines could escape destroyers. It may have been harder to do, but it was possible. It’s not right that the presence of an enemy destroyer suddenly “traps” all your subs into taking whatever pounding can be delivered by other warships and air force with no chance of escape.
Here is a question based on OOB Revised Sub rule about how planes vs subs work:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=19265.msg653220#msg653220
Here is some critics against OOB Subs rules which originated from AA50:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13280.msg372321#msg372321
Another HR thread on expanding subs capacity within AA50 OOB rules:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12715.msg351474#msg351474
On Subs vs carriers and planes within AA50 OOB rules:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12894.msg357559#msg357559
Questions on the difference between OOB rules on Sub movement (Krieghund answers):
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=18122.msg602427#msg602427
Here is a discussion on 1 to 1 ratio of DD blocking Subs units.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13777.msg400454#msg400454
OOB Sub Rule explanation for AA50:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12999.msg360557#msg360557
Questions and Sub HR for AA50
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13328.msg374269#msg374269
On Destroyer blocking capabilities:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27657.msg976619#msg976619
A general discussion on the weakness of warships (and mainly Subs) vs planes:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13689.msg394591#msg394591
HR based on OOB Sub Rule for AARe:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=10141.msg220593#msg220593
Questions about the no planes vs Subs OOB rules in Spring 1942:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23342.msg797467#msg797467
Clarification questions on Subs in Spring 1942 compared to Classic:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=22193.msg745365#msg745365
Questions about OOB Sub rule for AAEurope:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26311.msg915185#msg915185
Questions about OOB Sub rule for Global 40:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=22339.msg750150#msg750150
A HR thread on Sub only fleet (based on G40 OOB):
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31290.msg1146058#msg1146058
Question about G40 OOB Sub submerge individually or as a group:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26530.msg924287#msg924287
House Rule thread on Convoy Raiding more like SBR:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27212.msg956369#msg956369
House Rule on Subs in which Subs and Battleship cannot hit Subs:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=20166.msg678063#msg678063