The UnBaltic - CSub paper #18

Oh crap.
I knew I should have taken the effect to see what CSub is.

Its famous enough. I know of it when I first researched about Axis and Allies (before I bought the game) but didn’t go into the site.

So I just thought CSub is all about policy papers.

1 page ruleset? Nows that amazing. I am going to check it out.

Ah. I just googled caspian sub and its all coming back to me.
I never found out about CSub because it requires joining.

Would nice if Mazer could post the ruleset here.

Did you notice NOTHING is downloadable without joining the CSub yahoo group?
Would be nice if CORE things were downloadable without joining.

I wonder why its like this.

LHTR, AARe and AARHE files are all avaliable to the general public without joining anything.

Also, you should note, that it’s a one page summary of CHANGES to the rules.  It is NOT a rules set like LHTR.  There’s a significant difference.

For one, someone who has never read the Revised Rules from the Box can play with the LHTR rules.  You cannot play with the CSUB rules under the same circumstances.

Man was the first made in God’s image.  Then God realized he made a mistake and fixed it on Human 1.1 (as we know, beta testing is always hard on the creator, there are all these bugs that have to be fixed.  That’s why we go with release after beta testing.  Women are the released version, men are the beta version. :P).

Two questions:

TripleA has an edit function? Is there a newer version that 0.9.0.2?

How come CSub rules say subs submerge before the attacker can retreat, when – as has been said – LHTR rules say attacker first?

Even under LHTR, I still think UnBaltic, fleet unification, whatever you want to call it is still one of Germany’s best openings. For one, if the UK does retreat to sz8, then the US strafe of sz7 will only have a bmb. The EUS ftr can only hit sz7 if there’s a UK ac there.

A bid of 1sub in sz8 can wipe out both UK bbs – though likely at the cost of a ftr – and sorta prevents a US1 landing in Alg, but Germany doesn’t make it very far in Africa. A Baltic ac forces a smart UK player to build ftrs and can still go north or sit in the Baltic, but it doesn’t slow down Africa landings.

Another result of UK retreating to sz7 could be that G1 doesn’t involve an air purchase. If UK’s not gonna bring the fight, then this could free up money for a G1 Med ac (and trn?) purchase to meet up in sz13 on G2, or other G2 air/sea purchases.

@Craig:

The LHTR are here.  And further more, they are the basis for everything moving forward.  (Yes, I have an inside line on things.  8-) )

Oooh more insider hints.
Still doesn’t fix the disappointment of LHTR 2.0 being a bit “LHTR 1.4”, yet.

Did you notice NOTHING is downloadable without joining the CSub yahoo group?
Would be nice if CORE things were downloadable without joining.

I wonder why its like this.

Because Mazer likes to review the posts so that things don’t turn into a “monkey dung fight”.  (His words, not mine.)

Thats just posting.
Is it not possible with yahoo groups to set public access to “files” and “photos”?

@hyogoetophile:

TripleA has an edit function? Is there a newer version that 0.9.0.2?

Yeah 0.9.1.0 unstable and 0.9.3.0 unstable.
I don’t use TripleA though.
But I try to keep up with things after I make a tiny contribution a long time ago, last year.  :lol:

I also want to speak regarding Yahell Groups.

I have run a pretty large number of them going back over the past 8 or 9 years (actually including the precursor sites that Yahell bought to create “Yahoo Groups”

Y-Groups are spam targets.  The only way to block spam is to restrict posting to members.

And as far as not being able to download papers, etc…
Even on THIS open site, guests cannot download files.  You have to join to be able to upload game files or to post, and you have to join to download.

If you want to hammer CSub about an issue, please do not make it access to their files, etc.  Joining is free and easy, and serves mostly to protect the members from being spam targets, and from spider harvesting.

@ncscswitch:

spider harvesting.

Spider Harvesting is having programs that scan the web looking for e-mail addresses, especially in places like web page guest books on on forums like this one an Yahell Groups.

The “spiders” go out and hunt down e-mail addys that are then sold to spammers.

@Cmdr:

Then God realized he made a mistake …

God makes mistakes?

That would make him…human…?

@axis_roll:

@Cmdr:

Then God realized he made a mistake …

God makes mistakes?

That would make him…human…?

well, God cant make a mistake

and to respond to your question

well, Jesus was human but sinless

without a single mistake

so all humans didnt make mistakes, even a single exception, is an exception

we ve turned away from the topic ˝frickin subs˝ :lol: :lol:

@Cmdr:

Mazer,

You have to realize that when you take CSub rules out of CSub then you have to account for the rules everyone else uses, not just your adjustments (all of which are included or improved on by LHTR.)

I dare say 100% of the people, except you, use LHTR on this site.  Maybe there’s one or two others out of the 15,000+ registered members who do not use LHTR, but the point isn’t the ratio of users to non-users, but that the vast majority of this site uses LHTR primarily, the rest use TripleA only because they like using the TripleA program.

I dislike using LHTR, as the vast majority of players I know do not use LHTR.  If Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast would just make LHTR official, then I could push people to use LHTR.  But Hasbro doesn’t, and I won’t.

If your papers do not work in LHTR, then expect to have them blasted out of the water on this site.  If you do NOT want them blasted out of the water, I suggest you type up your rule set and then your paper so as to limit the discussion to only your rule set.

Mm . . . well, yeah, I think so.  There are a few CSub papers that are specific to using CSub rules.  I don’t like those papers.  They’re scary.  I think of hoboes when I see them.  Stabby hoboes.

“Think as I think,” said a man,
“Or you are abominably wicked;
You are a toad.”

And after I had thought of it,
I said, “I will, then, be a toad.”

(hums) it ain’t easy bein’ green . . .

@ncscswitch:

And as far as not being able to download papers, etc…
Even on THIS open site, guests cannot download files.

Oh. I see. Now I know.

You can download from boardgamegeek!
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/9780/CSubP03_-_Caspian_Sub_Rules.rtf

Now the uninformed like me can discuss CSub #18 properly.

@Craig:

The LHTR are here.  And further more, they are the basis for everything moving forward.  (Yes, I have an inside line on things.  8-) )

To me, there is ONE basis for “everything”, and that’s the official FAQ released on the Avalon Hill website.  LHTR is not on there.  That’s all there is to it.

DAAK, Axis and Allies Org, the Larry Harris forum, US tournament scene - all that’s fine and good, but I really don’t give a d*** about them.  As fine as all those organizations are, they do not speak for Avalon Hill.

If you’ve really got an inside line on things, Yoper, put it where it counts - get a final revision of LHTR put up on the Avalon Hill website.  Then LHTR will BE official.  It won’t just be “oh, it ought to be official shoulda woulda coulda blah blah balance blah blah original designer blah blah”.

BTW, I support LHTR.  I think they’re fine changes, particularly with NAs (although I think they may need a bit more editing before final release).  But I generally DO NOT USE LHTR.

–—

BTW, Cmdr Jennifer, don’t bother telling me how me and Mazer are the only ones that play OOB-variations, and how Everyone and their Mother uses LHTR.

You walk into a store, you pull out Axis and Allies Revised.  At least nine times out of ten, nobody’s going to say “You got a printout of LHTR 2.0 with that?”

If you’re playing with a buncha noobs that don’t know any better and have never seen the rulebook, you can use LHTR, because they don’t know any better.  But the moment one of 'em buys the game, he’s gonna have some questions about why the rulebooks look so different.  Unless YOU explained LHTR to him/her.  That’s how it works.  People don’t know about LHTR.  They just don’t.

Most people that play boardgames in the United States of America are not members of DAAK, most people in the United States don’t go to the World Boardgaming Championships.  Those are pretty much given, but I am going to go farther and say that MOST PLAYERS OF AXIS AND ALLIES DO NOT USE LHTR.  Substantiation?

You’re new to the game?  Maybe you go on Wikipedia.  No mention of LHTR there (although you DO find TripleA).  Maybe you go on the Avalon Hill website.  No mention of LHTR there.  Only if you hit the forums a lot or attend the World Boardgaming Championships or such, or if you’re a member of DAAK or one of these other clubs that uses LHTR - only THEN do you use LHTR.

Almost two million copies of Axis and Allies Revised printed.  Let’s say just 100,000 sold.  Let’s also say that you have 1.5 players of Axis and Allies per board game.  So that’s 150,000 players.  You want to tell me that 76,000 of those players KNOW LHTR 2.0?

96 members at DAAK.  Contrast that with 120 ACTIVE members at TripleA Ladder.  (They just pruned their inactive members, killing my first account in the process  :|)  So non-LHTR beats out LHTR already for the two big online clubs that I can think of offhand.

564 members at Larry Harris Game Design forums.  Let’s say each of those 564 members plays Axis and Allies Revised, doesn’t know any of the others in real life, and has six other people that they play Axis and Allies with.  Even with this inflation, it’s still 3100 some people.

Okay, let’s blow up DAAK some.  Multiply them by ten.  So with 960 added, you have 4100 people playing LHTR.

Now let’s take the WBC.  Let’s say they had . . . 640 players!  More multiplication by ten.  It’s a trend, why ruin a good thing?

So you’re looking at 5000 some people, and I’m already multiplying by ten all over the place.  Well, although I’ve mentioned some of the major groups that play LHTR, and multiplied by ten, and assumed that NONE of the players overlap, I’ll even multiply by five again.  That’s 25,000 people, and I think it’s pretty obvious that’s very likely to be considerably inflated.

If my figures are wrong, please feel free to correct them, but I still don’t see how you’re going to hit 50% of people playing by LHTR.

Unless . . . you recruit teh jenforces!  :wink:

Actually, Toys R Us and Gamer’s Paradise and a few other gaming stores I go into semi-frequently (I have to go to Toy stores, I have kids, what’s your excuse?) have LHTR printouts in a nice stack next to the game with a sign saying similar to “Recommended Rules Revisions.”

Since at least one of the stores is a national franchise, I feel it safe to say there are a number of other stores that have done the same thing.

But yes, I agree, there are a lot of heathens in the world still using the box rules because no one has entered their lives to enlighten them to the corrections of the grand master.  However, once the word is given to them, they quickly see the light of knowledge and understanding and convert with all their hearts. :P (yes, making it sound religion on purpose, it’ll get more attention that way!)

However, you never see CSub’s or TripleA or Bob Smith’s variants of the rules printed in nice, neatly stacked piles in the major or minor stores next to the game because they are not approved by the major gaming clubs, the major tournaments, the game designer or even that widely spread in the community as a whole.  Not to mention they are not full rule sets like LHTR is.

Furthermore, I love how you make it sound like people who use LHTR are as few in number as people who play AARe or AARHE, when it’s clear that the vast majority of the internet community (and that’s the community we are dealing with, and therefore, is the only community worth talking about) is using LHTR.

When you play here, NPB, what rule set do YOU use?  Box, or LHTR, or TripleA or CSub?  I’d bet you every last one of your games on this forum, or darn near close to it, recently played has been LHTR.

@newpaintbrush:

DAAK, Axis and Allies Org, the Larry Harris forum, US tournament scene - all that’s fine and good, but I really don’t give a d*** about them.  As fine as all those organizations are, they do not speak for Avalon Hill.

HEY!

You forgot Axis and Allies Member club (http://aamc.net/bunker/)
they use LHTR for Revised games too (142 members on the revised ranking list)

Oooh, two polarities regarding take up of house rules.

I want to hear a third opinion about the take up of LHTR outside of the internet.

My store (Australia) didn’t have a stack of LHTR. I printed it myself.

By the way, I browsed the CSub rules. The rules change really is half a page. Document is 12 pages though.

And yes AARe and AARHE supports LHTR. :wink:

@tekkyy:

I want to hear a third opinion about the take up of LHTR outside of the internet.

No offense, love, but Australia’s commercial practices and policies are probably not the same as those in the United States, being as it’s a whole other continent, not just another country. :P

@Cmdr:

Actually, Toys R Us and Gamer’s Paradise and a few other gaming stores I go into semi-frequently (I have to go to Toy stores, I have kids, what’s your excuse?) have LHTR printouts in a nice stack next to the game with a sign saying similar to “Recommended Rules Revisions.”

I’ve never been to “Gamer’s Paradise”.

As far as this national franchise that you speak of goes, I’ve been in Toys R Us - not for eight months - but last time I went, I didn’t see any sort of rules clarification printouts for ANY game.  Maybe it’s different in Chicago.

Since at least one of the stores is a national franchise, I feel it safe to say there are a number of other stores that have done the same thing.

But yes, I agree, there are a lot of heathens in the world still using the box rules because no one has entered their lives to enlighten them to the corrections of the grand master.  However, once the word is given to them, they quickly see the light of knowledge and understanding and convert with all their hearts. :P (yes, making it sound religion on purpose, it’ll get more attention that way!)

Yes, we must enlighten those heathen scum with the burning torches of their own bodies!  They will soon come to regret their fool-scum ways as the horrible pain brings them to their senses!  Because that’s how we do it COMPTON STYLE FOOL!  :roll:

However, you never see CSub’s or TripleA or Bob Smith’s variants of the rules printed in nice, neatly stacked piles in the major or minor stores next to the game because they are not approved by the major gaming clubs, the major tournaments, the game designer or even that widely spread in the community as a whole.  Not to mention they are not full rule sets like LHTR is.

To really get the official LHTR, you have to read the whole thing as opposed to reading a page or two.  That actually works AGAINST LHTR, IMHO.  There’s a good reason why people put up a summary of changes between Out of the Box and LHTR - it’s useful for vets.

Furthermore, I love how you make it sound like people who use LHTR are as few in number as people who play AARe or AARHE, when it’s clear that the vast majority of the internet community (and that’s the community we are dealing with, and therefore, is the only community worth talking about) is using LHTR.

I’d say LHTR is the largest minority ruleset in use by a good bit.  I wouldn’t say LHTR isn’t worth considering, or that the people that play LHTR aren’t worth considering.  What I am saying is that LHTR is a minority.  A minority is a minority.

Come on, you want to say that the internet community is the only community worth talking about because we’re in the internet community?  :?

Kids.  Don’t drink the Kool-Aid.

When you play here, NPB, what rule set do YOU use?  Box, or LHTR, or TripleA or CSub?  I’d bet you every last one of your games on this forum, or darn near close to it, recently played has been LHTR.

I play OOB with FAQ, and on this forum too.

I do not play LHTR.
I would not use them in a car.
I would not play them on a plane.
I like them but not to explain.

I do not use LHTR.
I do not use them, Sam I are!

Would you use them on a train?
Would you could you in the rain?

I do not play LHTR.
I would not could not on a train.
I would not could not in the rain.
I would not could not rack my brain.

I do not use LHTR.
I do not use them, Sam I are!

No, we only need to worry about the internet community because the other communities are not present to worry about.

Why should you give your hot dog to some kid from Uzbekistan if you cannot get to the kid from Uzbekistan because you are in Chicago and he is in Uzbekistan?  Give the hot dog to a kid where you are.

Same here.  Why talk about some non-entity that may, or may not, exist when we have a large sum of entities who are impacted and present and we know exist?

@Craig:

@newpaintbrush:

To me, there is ONE basis for “everything”, and that’s the official FAQ released on the Avalon Hill website.  LHTR is not on there.  That’s all there is to it.

DAAK, Axis and Allies Org, the Larry Harris forum, US tournament scene - all that’s fine and good, but I really don’t give a d*** about them.  As fine as all those organizations are, they do not speak for Avalon Hill.

If you’ve really got an inside line on things, Yoper, put it where it counts - get a final revision of LHTR put up on the Avalon Hill website.  Then LHTR will BE official.  It won’t just be “oh, it ought to be official shoulda woulda coulda blah blah balance blah blah original designer blah blah”.

I’ve got a story for that too, but I can’t tell it right now.

One big problem with just posting the LHTR up on their website (or putting it into the next print run)- what happens to all those copies of the game sitting on the shelves of the local game store?  Those merchants would be a bit pissed if people didn’t want to buy that stock and were clamoring for the new stuff.

Yes, what DOES happen to those copies sitting on the shelves?  They sell just like normal.  In fact, I think they sell BETTER than normal.  What YOU are talking about is releasing a NEW edition of Axis and Allies Revised (whether by changing the rulebook for the reprint or coming out with another version).  What I am talking about is releasing LHTR on the Avalon Hill website.

Why would Axis and Allies Revised sell BETTER than normal?  Because you wouldn’t have all this unpleasant disagreement over what ruleset people should play.  As it is, people that are aware of the two rulesets will see a conflict.  Once people see that there is only ONE ruleset, then there will be no conflict.  A stronger community makes for more players.

And note that Avalon Hill ALREADY has an FAQ on their website.  I don’t see that merchants made a clamor over that.  Why would they suddenly object over LHTR?  You still need a board and pieces to play (and if you were using ABattlemap or TripleA, you still wouldn’t need a board and pieces).

Gets back to your whole argument about noobs not knowing about the different versions of the rules and then buying an older copy of the game with the first set of rules.  They would probably not even know that there have been problems and might just end up with an older version.  That leads to chaos and pissed of customers.

That isn’t my argument at all, Yoper, and I think you’re rather going out on a limb there.  After all, if you want to argue that different versions of the game leads to "chaos and pissed of(f) customers, then I’m sure you would have argued against the release of Axis and Allies Revised as opposed to the last release.  But that’s not what you’re saying, is it Yoper?  I wouldn’t want to put words in your mouth, now.

My argument is that there are a very loud and vocal minority in the boardgaming community that think they have the right to speak for everyone else.  Frankly, I wouldn’t tolerate that sort of thing even if they were the majority, nor would I tolerate being told that I don’t have a right to my own opinion even if those people WERE the officials in charge of the boardgame rules in question.  What I think is nuts is that somehow I’m being told what I’m supposed to think and act, and I’m being told what everyone else thinks and acts, and I just don’t see this supposed magical understanding in real life.  Chaos and pissed off customers?  I’m pretty happy with Wizards of the Coast; all they’ve ever done for me is put up helpful FAQs and ship me free stuff to fix what I think was wrong with my purchased products.

But this whole LHTR thing - yeah, there seems to be a lot of argument and negative emotions attached to that, regardless of the fact that it’s the better ruleset.  There is chaos, there is argument, there are displeased customers, but those are not things that I perceive in any way as being attached to Wizards of the Coast.

I’ve never had a problem with using OOB/FAQ; I say “It’s on the Wizards of the Coast website.  It’s the official FAQ.  Here’s the web address”, and that’s the end of it.

Yes, it would be nice if AH/WotC/Hasbro would make them official right now.  But just wait.

@tekkyy:

Oooh more insider hints.
Still doesn’t fix the disappointment of LHTR 2.0 being a bit “LHTR 1.4”, yet.

There are, as I have stated before, reasons for that.  Sufficed to say, it will all be clear eventually.

Craig

:roll:

In all seriousness, it isn’t that I have an issue with the INTENT of what you’re saying, Yoper; I’m sure you’re as honest as the day is long.  But plans have a way of changing, and there are many a slip 'twixt cup and lip.

I believe in what I see.  Words are cheap.

Would YOU be satisfied if you had a problem, and someone, even someone with some authority, said “Don’t worry, everything’s going to be OK”?  And let’s say there were no explanations forthcoming.  It’s just “Don’t worry!”  I don’t know how you do things in your neck of the woods, but I find such situations unacceptable.

And to be told that my opinion doesn’t matter?

My opinions don’t matter, and everything’s going to be okay, just don’t worry about it?  Just try pulling that sort of thing at work.  People that work under or with you will hate you, and your boss will just fire you.  Think I’m wrong there?

I’m sure that if you think about things in that perspective that you will understand and agree with my position.