@krieghund yes, that is what I meant
The UnBaltic - CSub paper #18
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@Cmdr:
Then God realized he made a mistake …
God makes mistakes?
That would make him…human…?
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@Cmdr:
Then God realized he made a mistake …
God makes mistakes?
That would make him…human…?
well, God cant make a mistake
and to respond to your question
well, Jesus was human but sinless
without a single mistake
so all humans didnt make mistakes, even a single exception, is an exception
we ve turned away from the topic ˝frickin subs˝ :lol: :lol:
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@Cmdr:
Mazer,
You have to realize that when you take CSub rules out of CSub then you have to account for the rules everyone else uses, not just your adjustments (all of which are included or improved on by LHTR.)
I dare say 100% of the people, except you, use LHTR on this site. Maybe there’s one or two others out of the 15,000+ registered members who do not use LHTR, but the point isn’t the ratio of users to non-users, but that the vast majority of this site uses LHTR primarily, the rest use TripleA only because they like using the TripleA program.
I dislike using LHTR, as the vast majority of players I know do not use LHTR. If Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast would just make LHTR official, then I could push people to use LHTR. But Hasbro doesn’t, and I won’t.
If your papers do not work in LHTR, then expect to have them blasted out of the water on this site. If you do NOT want them blasted out of the water, I suggest you type up your rule set and then your paper so as to limit the discussion to only your rule set.
Mm . . . well, yeah, I think so. There are a few CSub papers that are specific to using CSub rules. I don’t like those papers. They’re scary. I think of hoboes when I see them. Stabby hoboes.
“Think as I think,” said a man,
“Or you are abominably wicked;
You are a toad.”And after I had thought of it,
I said, “I will, then, be a toad.”(hums) it ain’t easy bein’ green . . .
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@ncscswitch:
And as far as not being able to download papers, etc…
Even on THIS open site, guests cannot download files.Oh. I see. Now I know.
You can download from boardgamegeek!
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/9780/CSubP03_-_Caspian_Sub_Rules.rtfNow the uninformed like me can discuss CSub #18 properly.
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@Craig:
The LHTR are here. And further more, they are the basis for everything moving forward. (Yes, I have an inside line on things. 8-) )
To me, there is ONE basis for “everything”, and that’s the official FAQ released on the Avalon Hill website. LHTR is not on there. That’s all there is to it.
DAAK, Axis and Allies Org, the Larry Harris forum, US tournament scene - all that’s fine and good, but I really don’t give a d*** about them. As fine as all those organizations are, they do not speak for Avalon Hill.
If you’ve really got an inside line on things, Yoper, put it where it counts - get a final revision of LHTR put up on the Avalon Hill website. Then LHTR will BE official. It won’t just be “oh, it ought to be official shoulda woulda coulda blah blah balance blah blah original designer blah blah”.
BTW, I support LHTR. I think they’re fine changes, particularly with NAs (although I think they may need a bit more editing before final release). But I generally DO NOT USE LHTR.
–—
BTW, Cmdr Jennifer, don’t bother telling me how me and Mazer are the only ones that play OOB-variations, and how Everyone and their Mother uses LHTR.
You walk into a store, you pull out Axis and Allies Revised. At least nine times out of ten, nobody’s going to say “You got a printout of LHTR 2.0 with that?”
If you’re playing with a buncha noobs that don’t know any better and have never seen the rulebook, you can use LHTR, because they don’t know any better. But the moment one of 'em buys the game, he’s gonna have some questions about why the rulebooks look so different. Unless YOU explained LHTR to him/her. That’s how it works. People don’t know about LHTR. They just don’t.
Most people that play boardgames in the United States of America are not members of DAAK, most people in the United States don’t go to the World Boardgaming Championships. Those are pretty much given, but I am going to go farther and say that MOST PLAYERS OF AXIS AND ALLIES DO NOT USE LHTR. Substantiation?
You’re new to the game? Maybe you go on Wikipedia. No mention of LHTR there (although you DO find TripleA). Maybe you go on the Avalon Hill website. No mention of LHTR there. Only if you hit the forums a lot or attend the World Boardgaming Championships or such, or if you’re a member of DAAK or one of these other clubs that uses LHTR - only THEN do you use LHTR.
Almost two million copies of Axis and Allies Revised printed. Let’s say just 100,000 sold. Let’s also say that you have 1.5 players of Axis and Allies per board game. So that’s 150,000 players. You want to tell me that 76,000 of those players KNOW LHTR 2.0?
96 members at DAAK. Contrast that with 120 ACTIVE members at TripleA Ladder. (They just pruned their inactive members, killing my first account in the process :|) So non-LHTR beats out LHTR already for the two big online clubs that I can think of offhand.
564 members at Larry Harris Game Design forums. Let’s say each of those 564 members plays Axis and Allies Revised, doesn’t know any of the others in real life, and has six other people that they play Axis and Allies with. Even with this inflation, it’s still 3100 some people.
Okay, let’s blow up DAAK some. Multiply them by ten. So with 960 added, you have 4100 people playing LHTR.
Now let’s take the WBC. Let’s say they had . . . 640 players! More multiplication by ten. It’s a trend, why ruin a good thing?
So you’re looking at 5000 some people, and I’m already multiplying by ten all over the place. Well, although I’ve mentioned some of the major groups that play LHTR, and multiplied by ten, and assumed that NONE of the players overlap, I’ll even multiply by five again. That’s 25,000 people, and I think it’s pretty obvious that’s very likely to be considerably inflated.
If my figures are wrong, please feel free to correct them, but I still don’t see how you’re going to hit 50% of people playing by LHTR.
Unless . . . you recruit teh jenforces! :wink:
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Actually, Toys R Us and Gamer’s Paradise and a few other gaming stores I go into semi-frequently (I have to go to Toy stores, I have kids, what’s your excuse?) have LHTR printouts in a nice stack next to the game with a sign saying similar to “Recommended Rules Revisions.”
Since at least one of the stores is a national franchise, I feel it safe to say there are a number of other stores that have done the same thing.
But yes, I agree, there are a lot of heathens in the world still using the box rules because no one has entered their lives to enlighten them to the corrections of the grand master. However, once the word is given to them, they quickly see the light of knowledge and understanding and convert with all their hearts. :P (yes, making it sound religion on purpose, it’ll get more attention that way!)
However, you never see CSub’s or TripleA or Bob Smith’s variants of the rules printed in nice, neatly stacked piles in the major or minor stores next to the game because they are not approved by the major gaming clubs, the major tournaments, the game designer or even that widely spread in the community as a whole. Not to mention they are not full rule sets like LHTR is.
Furthermore, I love how you make it sound like people who use LHTR are as few in number as people who play AARe or AARHE, when it’s clear that the vast majority of the internet community (and that’s the community we are dealing with, and therefore, is the only community worth talking about) is using LHTR.
When you play here, NPB, what rule set do YOU use? Box, or LHTR, or TripleA or CSub? I’d bet you every last one of your games on this forum, or darn near close to it, recently played has been LHTR.
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DAAK, Axis and Allies Org, the Larry Harris forum, US tournament scene - all that’s fine and good, but I really don’t give a d*** about them. As fine as all those organizations are, they do not speak for Avalon Hill.
HEY!
You forgot Axis and Allies Member club (http://aamc.net/bunker/)
they use LHTR for Revised games too (142 members on the revised ranking list) -
Oooh, two polarities regarding take up of house rules.
I want to hear a third opinion about the take up of LHTR outside of the internet.
My store (Australia) didn’t have a stack of LHTR. I printed it myself.
By the way, I browsed the CSub rules. The rules change really is half a page. Document is 12 pages though.
And yes AARe and AARHE supports LHTR. :wink:
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I want to hear a third opinion about the take up of LHTR outside of the internet.
No offense, love, but Australia’s commercial practices and policies are probably not the same as those in the United States, being as it’s a whole other continent, not just another country. :P
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@Cmdr:
Actually, Toys R Us and Gamer’s Paradise and a few other gaming stores I go into semi-frequently (I have to go to Toy stores, I have kids, what’s your excuse?) have LHTR printouts in a nice stack next to the game with a sign saying similar to “Recommended Rules Revisions.”
I’ve never been to “Gamer’s Paradise”.
As far as this national franchise that you speak of goes, I’ve been in Toys R Us - not for eight months - but last time I went, I didn’t see any sort of rules clarification printouts for ANY game. Maybe it’s different in Chicago.
Since at least one of the stores is a national franchise, I feel it safe to say there are a number of other stores that have done the same thing.
But yes, I agree, there are a lot of heathens in the world still using the box rules because no one has entered their lives to enlighten them to the corrections of the grand master. However, once the word is given to them, they quickly see the light of knowledge and understanding and convert with all their hearts. :P (yes, making it sound religion on purpose, it’ll get more attention that way!)
Yes, we must enlighten those heathen scum with the burning torches of their own bodies! They will soon come to regret their fool-scum ways as the horrible pain brings them to their senses! Because that’s how we do it COMPTON STYLE FOOL! :roll:
However, you never see CSub’s or TripleA or Bob Smith’s variants of the rules printed in nice, neatly stacked piles in the major or minor stores next to the game because they are not approved by the major gaming clubs, the major tournaments, the game designer or even that widely spread in the community as a whole. Not to mention they are not full rule sets like LHTR is.
To really get the official LHTR, you have to read the whole thing as opposed to reading a page or two. That actually works AGAINST LHTR, IMHO. There’s a good reason why people put up a summary of changes between Out of the Box and LHTR - it’s useful for vets.
Furthermore, I love how you make it sound like people who use LHTR are as few in number as people who play AARe or AARHE, when it’s clear that the vast majority of the internet community (and that’s the community we are dealing with, and therefore, is the only community worth talking about) is using LHTR.
I’d say LHTR is the largest minority ruleset in use by a good bit. I wouldn’t say LHTR isn’t worth considering, or that the people that play LHTR aren’t worth considering. What I am saying is that LHTR is a minority. A minority is a minority.
Come on, you want to say that the internet community is the only community worth talking about because we’re in the internet community? :?
Kids. Don’t drink the Kool-Aid.
When you play here, NPB, what rule set do YOU use? Box, or LHTR, or TripleA or CSub? I’d bet you every last one of your games on this forum, or darn near close to it, recently played has been LHTR.
I play OOB with FAQ, and on this forum too.
I do not play LHTR.
I would not use them in a car.
I would not play them on a plane.
I like them but not to explain.I do not use LHTR.
I do not use them, Sam I are!Would you use them on a train?
Would you could you in the rain?I do not play LHTR.
I would not could not on a train.
I would not could not in the rain.
I would not could not rack my brain.I do not use LHTR.
I do not use them, Sam I are! -
No, we only need to worry about the internet community because the other communities are not present to worry about.
Why should you give your hot dog to some kid from Uzbekistan if you cannot get to the kid from Uzbekistan because you are in Chicago and he is in Uzbekistan? Give the hot dog to a kid where you are.
Same here. Why talk about some non-entity that may, or may not, exist when we have a large sum of entities who are impacted and present and we know exist?
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@Craig:
To me, there is ONE basis for “everything”, and that’s the official FAQ released on the Avalon Hill website. LHTR is not on there. That’s all there is to it.
DAAK, Axis and Allies Org, the Larry Harris forum, US tournament scene - all that’s fine and good, but I really don’t give a d*** about them. As fine as all those organizations are, they do not speak for Avalon Hill.
If you’ve really got an inside line on things, Yoper, put it where it counts - get a final revision of LHTR put up on the Avalon Hill website. Then LHTR will BE official. It won’t just be “oh, it ought to be official shoulda woulda coulda blah blah balance blah blah original designer blah blah”.
I’ve got a story for that too, but I can’t tell it right now.
One big problem with just posting the LHTR up on their website (or putting it into the next print run)- what happens to all those copies of the game sitting on the shelves of the local game store? Those merchants would be a bit pissed if people didn’t want to buy that stock and were clamoring for the new stuff.
Yes, what DOES happen to those copies sitting on the shelves? They sell just like normal. In fact, I think they sell BETTER than normal. What YOU are talking about is releasing a NEW edition of Axis and Allies Revised (whether by changing the rulebook for the reprint or coming out with another version). What I am talking about is releasing LHTR on the Avalon Hill website.
Why would Axis and Allies Revised sell BETTER than normal? Because you wouldn’t have all this unpleasant disagreement over what ruleset people should play. As it is, people that are aware of the two rulesets will see a conflict. Once people see that there is only ONE ruleset, then there will be no conflict. A stronger community makes for more players.
And note that Avalon Hill ALREADY has an FAQ on their website. I don’t see that merchants made a clamor over that. Why would they suddenly object over LHTR? You still need a board and pieces to play (and if you were using ABattlemap or TripleA, you still wouldn’t need a board and pieces).
Gets back to your whole argument about noobs not knowing about the different versions of the rules and then buying an older copy of the game with the first set of rules. They would probably not even know that there have been problems and might just end up with an older version. That leads to chaos and pissed of customers.
That isn’t my argument at all, Yoper, and I think you’re rather going out on a limb there. After all, if you want to argue that different versions of the game leads to "chaos and pissed of(f) customers, then I’m sure you would have argued against the release of Axis and Allies Revised as opposed to the last release. But that’s not what you’re saying, is it Yoper? I wouldn’t want to put words in your mouth, now.
My argument is that there are a very loud and vocal minority in the boardgaming community that think they have the right to speak for everyone else. Frankly, I wouldn’t tolerate that sort of thing even if they were the majority, nor would I tolerate being told that I don’t have a right to my own opinion even if those people WERE the officials in charge of the boardgame rules in question. What I think is nuts is that somehow I’m being told what I’m supposed to think and act, and I’m being told what everyone else thinks and acts, and I just don’t see this supposed magical understanding in real life. Chaos and pissed off customers? I’m pretty happy with Wizards of the Coast; all they’ve ever done for me is put up helpful FAQs and ship me free stuff to fix what I think was wrong with my purchased products.
But this whole LHTR thing - yeah, there seems to be a lot of argument and negative emotions attached to that, regardless of the fact that it’s the better ruleset. There is chaos, there is argument, there are displeased customers, but those are not things that I perceive in any way as being attached to Wizards of the Coast.
I’ve never had a problem with using OOB/FAQ; I say “It’s on the Wizards of the Coast website. It’s the official FAQ. Here’s the web address”, and that’s the end of it.
Yes, it would be nice if AH/WotC/Hasbro would make them official right now. But just wait.
Oooh more insider hints.
Still doesn’t fix the disappointment of LHTR 2.0 being a bit “LHTR 1.4”, yet.There are, as I have stated before, reasons for that. Sufficed to say, it will all be clear eventually.
Craig
:roll:
In all seriousness, it isn’t that I have an issue with the INTENT of what you’re saying, Yoper; I’m sure you’re as honest as the day is long. But plans have a way of changing, and there are many a slip 'twixt cup and lip.
I believe in what I see. Words are cheap.
Would YOU be satisfied if you had a problem, and someone, even someone with some authority, said “Don’t worry, everything’s going to be OK”? And let’s say there were no explanations forthcoming. It’s just “Don’t worry!” I don’t know how you do things in your neck of the woods, but I find such situations unacceptable.
And to be told that my opinion doesn’t matter?
My opinions don’t matter, and everything’s going to be okay, just don’t worry about it? Just try pulling that sort of thing at work. People that work under or with you will hate you, and your boss will just fire you. Think I’m wrong there?
I’m sure that if you think about things in that perspective that you will understand and agree with my position.
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So NPB, in OOB/FAQ rules, if there is a sea zone battle, and the defender takes all but subs as losses, can the attacker retreat, or can the defender submerge the subs and trap the attacker in that sea zone? I couldn’t find a clear answer to that.
I’m pretty happy with Wizards of the Coast; all they’ve ever done for me is put up helpful FAQs and ship me free stuff to fix what I think was wrong with my purchased products.
How does one get this free stuff of which you speak? I like free stuff. Free stuff is GOOD! (and Tanks are STRONG!)
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All they do is issue a press release that if you mail in your proof of purchase seal you get a copy of the fixed instructions free of charge. Bingo, end of story. Done. If you don’t WANT the new rules, don’t mail in the UPC code. (Hell, you have to do this all the time for rebates and to get free toys from cereal box tops, etc. Not like this is NEW or WEIRD.)
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So NPB, in OOB/FAQ rules, if there is a sea zone battle, and the defender takes all but subs as losses, can the attacker retreat, or can the defender submerge the subs and trap the attacker in that sea zone? I couldn’t find a clear answer to that.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/faqs/axisrevised
Retreats (section)
Can I retreat if I’ve eliminated all the defending units or if all defending units have submerged?
No. You can only retreat if enemy units remain on the battle board.I believe that indicates that the defender can choose to submerge subs first, leaving the attacker stuck.
I’m pretty happy with Wizards of the Coast; all they’ve ever done for me is put up helpful FAQs and ship me free stuff to fix what I think was wrong with my purchased products.
How does one get this free stuff of which you speak? I like free stuff. Free stuff is GOOD! (and Tanks are STRONG!)
Well, I play a fair bit with an actual board, and soon after buying my Axis and Allies Revised game, I was talking with some friends, and they mentioned that Wizards of the Coast had recognized that the game was short on chips, and was - for a limited time - mailing out free chips. So being me, I said “orly?” And they were like “yarly.” So I called WotC the next day.
Now get this.
I say “Hey, I hear you guys might be mailing out free chips”. Apparently they had discontinued the program, but they still had some bags of chips left. So they said they’d mail me some chips. Then I said “Half of my UK tanks are tannish-green, half are tannish-brown.” (they were) So they said “OK, we’ll send you some tanks.” So I thought “wow, this is pretty sweet.” So I said “I keep running out of Japanese infantry because I push Japanese infantry in Asia, and all my infantry pieces are on the islands.” So they said “OK, we’ll send you some.” So I was like “Wooahah. Do I pay shipping or anything?” And they said “Nope.”
I forget if it was a week, or a few days, or how long. But one day I opened up my mail, and I got all white chips, red chips, a whole new set of UK pieces, and a bag of Japanese infantry. At no additional cost. No arguing, no negotiation, no long and involved painful complaints, no wasted time. Just sweet satisfaction. I love those guys.
I blew about $1500 on Hecatomb, which was a Wizards of the Coast card game that folded (the cards are pretty much worthless now). But I still love Wizards of the Coast, because they support their product well. (BTW, I sent in a fair deal of offset-printed Hecatomb cards and got free replacements. Again - good customer service.)
I’ve never spent a penny on Wizards of the Coast product that I didn’t consider well-spent, and I don’t hesitate to buy new Wizards of the Coast product, because I’m sure they’ll back their product up. Good times.
I never heard of the mail in proof of purchase bit. I just use the WotC website to print the rule clarifications; link above.
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Mail in Proof of Purchase is just something that a lot of companies require. Dunno what WotCs policies are.
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So NPB, in OOB/FAQ rules, if there is a sea zone battle, and the defender takes all but subs as losses, can the attacker retreat, or can the defender submerge the subs and trap the attacker in that sea zone? I couldn’t find a clear answer to that.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/faqs/axisrevised
Retreats (section)
Can I retreat if I’ve eliminated all the defending units or if all defending units have submerged?
No. You can only retreat if enemy units remain on the battle board.I believe that indicates that the defender can choose to submerge subs first, leaving the attacker stuck.
That is still vague to me, because the subs may have submerged on a prior combat round. :shrug:
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So NPB, in OOB/FAQ rules, if there is a sea zone battle, and the defender takes all but subs as losses, can the attacker retreat, or can the defender submerge the subs and trap the attacker in that sea zone? I couldn’t find a clear answer to that.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/faqs/axisrevised
Retreats (section)
Can I retreat if I’ve eliminated all the defending units or if all defending units have submerged?
No. You can only retreat if enemy units remain on the battle board.I believe that indicates that the defender can choose to submerge subs first, leaving the attacker stuck.
That is still vague to me, because the subs may have submerged on a prior combat round. :shrug:
I thought there was a line in some ruleset about how you can’t retreat if all that is left is submerged subs. This would indicate that the submerge step is before the retreat step. But anyway, this thread has really strayed. CSub says subs first, LHTR says attacker first, OOB is crap.
Can’t we get back to the UnBaltic discussion?
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Yes, NewPaint
CaspianS says one and LHTR the other thing
BUT WHAT IS THE RULESET FOR OUR TOURNAMENT AND LEAGUE
SWITCH, DARTH, PLEASE CLARIFY, SO WE AVOID ANY POTENTIAL INCONVENIENCIES
THANK YOU
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@Craig:
npb- As I stated, my scenario was just one problem that could arise.
Why don’t they just post it on their website? My guess is that they don’t want to look foolish for having put a crappy ruleset into their game in the first place.
If I had to guess, I’d say that Avalon Hill doesn’t want to put up the LHTR ruleset because of royalty and/or copyright and author credit issues. I don’t think “looking foolish” has anything to do with it - first, because a mistake that is not corrected is more “foolish” than a mistake that is corrected, and second, because Avalon Hill’s put out a few games with rulebooks that weren’t so great (like Betrayal at House on the Hill, which although fun, required a bit more editing - note that Avalon Hill put up an FAQ for that game too).
Placing a FAQ/Errata up is a lot different than a wholesale changing out of the rules.
Avalon Hill/WotC/Hasbro could summarize the changes between out-of-the-box rules and LHTR rules in an FAQ/Errata.
Also, weren’t you the same person that talked about most people not even knowing about the LHTR? Even if AH/WotC/Hasbro did post the LHTR on their website, there would still be a large percentage that would miss the fact that there had been a change.
Yoper, don’t try to slide out of this one. A fix is a fix, and a website posting is a reasonable fix that doesn’t terribly inconvenience Avalon Hill (apart from the copyright issue already mentioned) that helps the customers. If you want to have the attitude that nothing should be changed or recognized, I fail to understand why you are even trying to say that LHTR should be used in the first place.
You say that WotC can’t release a new version because retailers will complain about unsold product on their shelves, you say that WotC can’t release errata on their website - all I’m hearing are negatives, despite the fact that you’re saying there should be change. If you want to say things like
The LHTR are here. And further more, they are the basis for everything moving forward. (Yes, I have an inside line on things. cool )
Then you follow with -
You talk about words and actions, but from my point of view, AH/WotC/Hasbro has done little or none of either to soothe my unhappiness. The only positive that I have witnessed in the last four years is the exchange of the A&A:Guadalcanal cruisers for the proper pieces. And that seems to be more of a function of a new brand manager for the A&A name than because of anything else that has happened.
You see how there could be confusion, Yoper. You say there’s a fix. But you’re not satisfied with the fix because WotC hasn’t soothed your unhappiness. I mentioned that LHTR could be put up on the website, and you are talking about a new edition causing unsold product on shelves, WotC not putting a fix on their website because they think they’ll look foolish - frankly, I don’t think we’re having the same discussion.
I just don’t understand what you’re shooting for, Yoper. I hope you can state what you think the problem is, and what you think the solution would be; I can’t imagine your nondisclosure agreement would prevent you from expressing your personal opinion - and I must say that although I’ve tried, I can’t figure out what you’re trying to get at here, other than that you think everyone should use LHTR, and yet that Avalon Hill shouldn’t make LHTR available on their website. Maybe that isn’t your position, but if you read back over your posts, I’m sure you can understand how I would arrive at this understanding.
I believe in what I see. Words are cheap.
I believe in what I have seen out of AH/WotC/Hasbro and I think that their words and actions are cheap.
Well, I know that dealing with a company on the inside is a lot different from dealing with the company on the outside, and as a tournament organizer, I’m sure you may have had some negative experiences.
But for myself, as a customer, I’ve had a universally positive experience with WotC/Hasbro. I’m not a fanboy either; I would rather that WotC/Hasbro had fixed the rules issues to begin with, and done more playtesting/editing work (anyone can tell that Superfortresses/Heavy Bombers is a broken strategy, as are Lend-Lease and any number of other out-of-the-box NAs).
Mistakes happen, though, and I feel that WotC/Hasbro has addressed the issues - perhaps not to everyone’s complete satisfaction, but at least to a reasonable standard (I actually feel in my case that they surpassed a reasonable standard)
I would love to tell all that I know about how these things have been and are now being handled. But I can’t. Having signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement means that I can’t discuss what I have been doing.
That is why I couch my statements as I do. I am not saying that you have to “trust” me implicitedly. I saying that I think that things will work out for the better once what I know about comes into the light.
Not everyone will be happy. :cry: That is just the way things are, no matter how hard you try to get it absolutely right. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to get them right. Isn’t that just what I’ve been saying all along?
Eventually, the deck will be cleared of this rules debate in its present form. That doesn’t mean that somehow there won’t be another one based on the next set of conditions. But hopefully it will be just about likes and dislikes of said ruleset, not about vagueness in what is said within the rulset.
Craig
TimTheEnchanter - I hadn’t thought of subs already being submerged. I suppose it is ambiguous.
Hyogoetophile - My personal thought on CSub paper 18 is that it is filled with hoboes with candy-filled pockets. I’ll explain in my next post.
Looking back on this thread, I nominate it for most Thread-Jacked of 2008.
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