Nazi Germany VS The Soviet Union

If Japan did as you say… then they would run out of oil in 6 months because they didn’t take all these pacific islands to create and safeguard the empire from Anglo incursions. The fleet would not move and be just the like the rusting Italian fleet… and the empire would be easy pickings. And they could not do BOTH… it took them till April 42 just to finish all these operations. If they invaded in May 42 the bulk of their Army now in eastern Russia… then China would gather its strength and throw them out of Manchuria. As it was that campaign became a constant occupation of Japaneses forces just to hold on to what they had.

Japan didn’t have the capability to Invade China, Take out Pacific fleet, Remove British power from the orient, AND invade Russia… this is way too much to ask a nation that hasn’t modernized her economy.

The only solution was to negotiate peace with USA and THEN turn to Russia. China was like having a second front for the Japanese.

I don’t think thats correct. The question is when the Germans could take Moscow. If that could happen in October-Sept 1941 instead of diverting and envelopment of the Kiev pocket the advance was pressed to Moscow that would have broken the Soviets.

The main rail centers run predominantly in a north to south path which all intersect to Moscow. Taking this prize would have ended the deployment of forces to sustain Leningrad (which would soon fade) and the Caucasus which got the Soviets their oil. Also, the transfer of military industry to Urals would have ended. With the major hub of communication and transportation in German hands it would be a quick fade and retreat to the Urals with no real base left to fight. The Soviets would now be defending in the vast wilderness deprived of major cities while the German would be in Moscow rather than in the snow outside of it.

Mmmm, that old capture the capitol thing.

Seem to remember Napoleon capturing Moscow, and much good did it do HIM.

I tend to think that the Germans would have been overwhelmed by sheer numbers sooner or later anyway.  Stalin might have been tempted to do a deal, but sitting in the Kremlin Hitler would not have been interested.

As Ezto said by conducting the war in the way they did the Germans gave the Russian people no choice BUT to fight them, even if it meant supporting Stalin.

Mmmm, that old capture the capitol thing.

Seem to remember Napoleon capturing Moscow, and much good did it do HIM.

I tend to think that the Germans would have been overwhelmed by sheer numbers sooner or later anyway.  Stalin might have been tempted to do a deal, but sitting in the Kremlin Hitler would not have been interested.

As Ezto said by conducting the war in the way they did the Germans gave the Russian people no choice BUT to fight them, even if it meant supporting Stalin.

spelling is CAPITAL… anyway Napoleon didn’t have to deal with modern logistics which would have safeguarded his army. Back then they didn’t “rail back home” … they had to walk. With modern mobilization the rail is very important in those days and Moscow was by far the major hub of all Stalins control over the territories.

Stalin sent third party peace ‘feelers’ as early as October 16th what it would take in concessions for Germany to end her war. The Germans refused to listen.

Spelling is dependent on context, as in A&A standard rules if you capture the Capital you also get to capture the Capitol.  Do you see?

No sir! In terms of taking London, Berlin, Paris etc…the word its clearly spells Capital as in a nations capital. However their is such a thing as the capitol building in washington

You did no see, sir.  What I’m meaning is that if you capture the “Capital” (city) then you get the “Capitol” (money) as well, understanding?

the captiol is in the capital. you can say Germany attacked SU’s capital but the did not fight over the capitol. VE day was when the Capitol of Berlin was taken because the Soviets already controlled almost all of Berlin.

Except the Nazis had salted all their capitol away in Swiss bank accounts.

Or do you believe that when Berlin was captured there was a big safe in the Chancelor’s office with “German Capitol; do not spend until next turn” printed on it?

@Flashman:

Except the Nazis had salted all their capitol away in Swiss bank accounts.

Or do you believe that when Berlin was captured there was a big safe in the Chancelor’s office with “German Capitol; do not spend until next turn” printed on it?

no it said give to soviets in case berlin is captured.  :lol:

Cyan:

Both of us know this to be true. Capital is what he was referring too…not Capitol.

But it doesn’t matter really.

@Imperious:

Cyan:

Both of us know this to be true. Capital is what he was referring too…not Capitol.

But it doesn’t matter really.

yeah i know. you could probablly use capitol in the sense of th ebuilding interchanablly with capital but their slightly differnt. but you can’t use it in the sense of money that way.

Had Moscow fallen before the autumnal rains, Russia had lost every capabilities to transfer industrial production from over the Urals to the Western Front, as Imperious Leader has said. Red Army should have to fight without supplies and replacements, not a good situation considering that winter was coming.

Moreover, if the German Capitol in the Capital (Berlin) was captured the big safe had contained the national gold reserve. However I do not know if German gold was in Berlin and nor I know where Russians held their gold, if they have it.

Do you honestly think there is one “big safe” with all the nations gold in the capital? :lol:

Ours is at Fort Knox, guarded by a whole Division.

@M36:

Do you honestly think there is one “big safe” with all the nations gold in the capital? :lol:

Ours is at Fort Knox, guarded by a whole Division.

Well… I am obviously joking!  :-D

I only would underline that capturing a Capital should not be evaluated only from a political and economics point of view. A Capital have also strategic, geograpic, and logistic values for his nations.
Moscow fall had hampered very much Red Army struggle to survive in 1941.

In fact the Soviets already had huge industrial capability east of Moscow; in the Urals, Kuzbas and Kazakhstan.  The “evacuation” program of moving factories from Ukraine and Leningrad to the east is generally overestimated.  That’s why my map has a Trans-Urals territory with an industrial complex, and higher values for Soviet eastern territories.

@Romulus:

Had Moscow fallen before the autumnal rains, Russia had lost every capabilities to transfer industrial production from over the Urals to the Western Front, as Imperious Leader has said. Red Army should have to fight without supplies and replacements, not a good situation considering that winter was coming.

Moreover, if the German Capitol in the Capital (Berlin) was captured the big safe had contained the national gold reserve. However I do not know if German gold was in Berlin and nor I know where Russians held their gold, if they have it.

By far the Soviets relied in those Western European factories and not as you point out those industries of 'Kuzbas and Kazakhstan"

In 1942 Germany occupied 134.2 out of the total Soviet output of 452 GDP leaving the Soviets with 318 which i can safely assume that the unconquered Area west of the Urals and the Caucasus would make up no less than about 50% of this balance leaving some 150 GDP to be assumed to become the territories east of the Urals. This is a generous statement because the Soviets only truly farming lands, oil refineries and transportation are all found in those areas west of the Urals. Their was no point in establishing Industry farther than outside of German influence because it took time to deploy these items to the front and logically industry needs to be close to the ‘action’.

@Flashman:

In fact the Soviets already had huge industrial capability east of Moscow; in the Urals, Kuzbas and Kazakhstan.  The “evacuation” program of moving factories from Ukraine and Leningrad to the east is generally overestimated.  That’s why my map has a Trans-Urals territory with an industrial complex, and higher values for Soviet eastern territories.

@Romulus:

Had Moscow fallen before the autumnal rains, Russia had lost every capabilities to transfer industrial production from over the Urals to the Western Front, as Imperious Leader has said. Red Army should have to fight without supplies and replacements, not a good situation considering that winter was coming.

Moreover, if the German Capitol in the Capital (Berlin) was captured the big safe had contained the national gold reserve. However I do not know if German gold was in Berlin and nor I know where Russians held their gold, if they have it.

In fact I am giving the appropriate consideration to the TransUral industries. What I am stating is that Moscow was the central hub of railroad network. The fall of Moscow in German hand, with or without the “big safe”, had casused the impossibility for the industrial products coming from Kazak, Kuzbak, etc., to reach the front.
So the Red Army of Worker and Peasants should have really fought with hammers and sickles.