Nazi Germany VS The Soviet Union


  • I don’t think thats correct. The question is when the Germans could take Moscow. If that could happen in October-Sept 1941 instead of diverting and envelopment of the Kiev pocket the advance was pressed to Moscow that would have broken the Soviets.

    The main rail centers run predominantly in a north to south path which all intersect to Moscow. Taking this prize would have ended the deployment of forces to sustain Leningrad (which would soon fade) and the Caucasus which got the Soviets their oil. Also, the transfer of military industry to Urals would have ended. With the major hub of communication and transportation in German hands it would be a quick fade and retreat to the Urals with no real base left to fight. The Soviets would now be defending in the vast wilderness deprived of major cities while the German would be in Moscow rather than in the snow outside of it.

  • Customizer

    Mmmm, that old capture the capitol thing.

    Seem to remember Napoleon capturing Moscow, and much good did it do HIM.

    I tend to think that the Germans would have been overwhelmed by sheer numbers sooner or later anyway.  Stalin might have been tempted to do a deal, but sitting in the Kremlin Hitler would not have been interested.

    As Ezto said by conducting the war in the way they did the Germans gave the Russian people no choice BUT to fight them, even if it meant supporting Stalin.


  • Mmmm, that old capture the capitol thing.

    Seem to remember Napoleon capturing Moscow, and much good did it do HIM.

    I tend to think that the Germans would have been overwhelmed by sheer numbers sooner or later anyway.  Stalin might have been tempted to do a deal, but sitting in the Kremlin Hitler would not have been interested.

    As Ezto said by conducting the war in the way they did the Germans gave the Russian people no choice BUT to fight them, even if it meant supporting Stalin.

    spelling is CAPITAL… anyway Napoleon didn’t have to deal with modern logistics which would have safeguarded his army. Back then they didn’t “rail back home” … they had to walk. With modern mobilization the rail is very important in those days and Moscow was by far the major hub of all Stalins control over the territories.

    Stalin sent third party peace ‘feelers’ as early as October 16th what it would take in concessions for Germany to end her war. The Germans refused to listen.

  • Customizer

    Spelling is dependent on context, as in A&A standard rules if you capture the Capital you also get to capture the Capitol.  Do you see?


  • No sir! In terms of taking London, Berlin, Paris etc…the word its clearly spells Capital as in a nations capital. However their is such a thing as the capitol building in washington

  • Customizer

    You did no see, sir.  What I’m meaning is that if you capture the “Capital” (city) then you get the “Capitol” (money) as well, understanding?


  • the captiol is in the capital. you can say Germany attacked SU’s capital but the did not fight over the capitol. VE day was when the Capitol of Berlin was taken because the Soviets already controlled almost all of Berlin.

  • Customizer

    Except the Nazis had salted all their capitol away in Swiss bank accounts.

    Or do you believe that when Berlin was captured there was a big safe in the Chancelor’s office with “German Capitol; do not spend until next turn” printed on it?

  • 2007 AAR League

    haha u got him flash


  • @Flashman:

    Except the Nazis had salted all their capitol away in Swiss bank accounts.

    Or do you believe that when Berlin was captured there was a big safe in the Chancelor’s office with “German Capitol; do not spend until next turn” printed on it?

    no it said give to soviets in case berlin is captured.  :lol:


  • Cyan:

    Both of us know this to be true. Capital is what he was referring too…not Capitol.

    But it doesn’t matter really.


  • @Imperious:

    Cyan:

    Both of us know this to be true. Capital is what he was referring too…not Capitol.

    But it doesn’t matter really.

    yeah i know. you could probablly use capitol in the sense of th ebuilding interchanablly with capital but their slightly differnt. but you can’t use it in the sense of money that way.


  • Had Moscow fallen before the autumnal rains, Russia had lost every capabilities to transfer industrial production from over the Urals to the Western Front, as Imperious Leader has said. Red Army should have to fight without supplies and replacements, not a good situation considering that winter was coming.

    Moreover, if the German Capitol in the Capital (Berlin) was captured the big safe had contained the national gold reserve. However I do not know if German gold was in Berlin and nor I know where Russians held their gold, if they have it.


  • Do you honestly think there is one “big safe” with all the nations gold in the capital? :lol:

    Ours is at Fort Knox, guarded by a whole Division.


  • @M36:

    Do you honestly think there is one “big safe” with all the nations gold in the capital? :lol:

    Ours is at Fort Knox, guarded by a whole Division.

    Well… I am obviously joking!  :-D

    I only would underline that capturing a Capital should not be evaluated only from a political and economics point of view. A Capital have also strategic, geograpic, and logistic values for his nations.
    Moscow fall had hampered very much Red Army struggle to survive in 1941.

  • Customizer

    In fact the Soviets already had huge industrial capability east of Moscow; in the Urals, Kuzbas and Kazakhstan.  The “evacuation” program of moving factories from Ukraine and Leningrad to the east is generally overestimated.  That’s why my map has a Trans-Urals territory with an industrial complex, and higher values for Soviet eastern territories.

    @Romulus:

    Had Moscow fallen before the autumnal rains, Russia had lost every capabilities to transfer industrial production from over the Urals to the Western Front, as Imperious Leader has said. Red Army should have to fight without supplies and replacements, not a good situation considering that winter was coming.

    Moreover, if the German Capitol in the Capital (Berlin) was captured the big safe had contained the national gold reserve. However I do not know if German gold was in Berlin and nor I know where Russians held their gold, if they have it.


  • By far the Soviets relied in those Western European factories and not as you point out those industries of 'Kuzbas and Kazakhstan"

    In 1942 Germany occupied 134.2 out of the total Soviet output of 452 GDP leaving the Soviets with 318 which i can safely assume that the unconquered Area west of the Urals and the Caucasus would make up no less than about 50% of this balance leaving some 150 GDP to be assumed to become the territories east of the Urals. This is a generous statement because the Soviets only truly farming lands, oil refineries and transportation are all found in those areas west of the Urals. Their was no point in establishing Industry farther than outside of German influence because it took time to deploy these items to the front and logically industry needs to be close to the ‘action’.


  • @Flashman:

    In fact the Soviets already had huge industrial capability east of Moscow; in the Urals, Kuzbas and Kazakhstan.  The “evacuation” program of moving factories from Ukraine and Leningrad to the east is generally overestimated.  That’s why my map has a Trans-Urals territory with an industrial complex, and higher values for Soviet eastern territories.

    @Romulus:

    Had Moscow fallen before the autumnal rains, Russia had lost every capabilities to transfer industrial production from over the Urals to the Western Front, as Imperious Leader has said. Red Army should have to fight without supplies and replacements, not a good situation considering that winter was coming.

    Moreover, if the German Capitol in the Capital (Berlin) was captured the big safe had contained the national gold reserve. However I do not know if German gold was in Berlin and nor I know where Russians held their gold, if they have it.

    In fact I am giving the appropriate consideration to the TransUral industries. What I am stating is that Moscow was the central hub of railroad network. The fall of Moscow in German hand, with or without the “big safe”, had casused the impossibility for the industrial products coming from Kazak, Kuzbak, etc., to reach the front.
    So the Red Army of Worker and Peasants should have really fought with hammers and sickles.


  • Humbly, I would like to point out, that the diversion of Army Groupen Center to envelop Kiev was not a blunder by the Germans but a necessity. It would have been unthinkable to leave such a huge force on their sourthern flank while they pushed hundreds of miles further with little support to guard that flank. It was protected mostly by the area known as the Pripet marshes, which General Heniz Guderian had just pushed some armor through in the capture of Smolinsk.
    Besides, the Army Group South was severely stalled, and needed Centers help. The coal mining fields, wheat fields, and the ports in the Crimea all needed to be captured without delay, and they were all just east of the Ukraine.
    Second topic is that of the Siberian Troops. They did not arrive in force until after the snow had already stalled the final drive on Moscow. The Siberians merely gave the Germans a push to give Moscow a little more breathing room. Had the Germans made Moscow the priority in 42 instead of the Caucuses, things could have turned out differently, but this thread is about Moscow in 41, and no I still don’t think they could have done it. the Severe weather and Harsh conditions along with the stiffening resistence of the Soviet workers and soldiers was too much for the over-extended and worn out German war machine.
      The Germans had enough men, tanks, planes and heavy guns to win every battle in operation Barbarossa. They simply could not achieve their goal, (Moscow) before the weather shut them down. Even had they forseen a winter campaign, it was not something the Germans had the means to deal with in 1941. Sub-artic temperatures congeal oil and grease to the point where guns won’t fire and engines will not start. Troops froze to death standing up! The germans lost more men to frostbite in that winter than to enemy bullets, bayonets, and entrenching tools combined.
      Even if they had broken into the outskirts of Moscow, it would have just become an early Stalingrad for them. They were lucky that they didn’t get caught in there, like Napoleon had.
      I’m sorry folks, but I’ve studied the “Eastern Front” or as the Soviets called it,“The Great Patriotic War” for many years and it just was not feasable in 41.
      1942 on the other hand, it was a reasonable goal.
          Crazy Ivan
      and no, I’m not of Russian ancestry, German and English actually.


  • Humbly, I would like to point out, that the diversion of Army Groupen Center to envelop Kiev was not a blunder by the Germans but a necessity. It would have been unthinkable to leave such a huge force on their sourthern flank while they pushed hundreds of miles further with little support to guard that flank. It was protected mostly by the area known as the Pripet marshes, which General Heniz Guderian had just pushed some armor through in the capture of Smolinsk.

    Yes but the same thing could have been achieved if they took Moscow first. AGN was must farther eastward and Moscow only had like 90,000 around Moscow in October. Germany could have easily taken it and THEN hooked south to envelop the entire southern area. They would have bagged more than 650,000. Also, the Soviets would have a hard time to cut them off due the Marshlands in between the two armies. Stalin was adamant at this stage of the war “not to give up the cities”. Hitler basically should have reversed the basic goal in 1941 to capture objectives rather than defeat the enemy on the field. That took too much time for a campaign that was designed on the ‘cheap’ to be of 6 months duration. And Germany previously had ONLY engaged in objective based campaigns… and didn’t rely of defeating the enemy on the field head on.

Suggested Topics

  • 31
  • 255
  • 8
  • 8
  • 104
  • 38
  • 22
  • 28
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures

82

Online

17.2k

Users

39.7k

Topics

1.7m

Posts