German buys turn one

@Jennifer:

As I understand it, the point of the Carrier on G1 is not for fleet unification, it’s to make the Baltic fleet hard to sink and force England and America to hold off landings until Germany 4 or 5.

“the point” - whose point? Sometimes a unit has more than one point.

If it adds defensive value in the Baltic, it adds it in SZ 7 too. Plus if you join the Med BB, Sub (assuming it survives killing the UK BB) and TRN you now have 2 TRN 3 Sub 1 DD 1 BB 1 AC 2 Ftrs - takes 11 hits to kill and can absorb 3-6 hits without losing much strength - there’s a good bit of fodder to back up the DD/AC (2@3) BB, 2 Ftrs (3@4)

Well I think I’ll try it anyway.

Normaly I don’t buy navy with Germany.  I think you can avoid a few Air attacks with submerge and buy units to pressure Russia more effectively.  I might try dropping a couple DDs over the course of the fist couple turns just to see if it diswades the brits, but only if I start getting bored.

When the game first came out I used a tank only strat with Germany quite successfully.  I would only buy tanks for 3 rounds and charge Russia with everything I had via the northern route.  However Russian strats have developed now and it doesn’t work.

@Imperious:

This idea of a carrier build does not allow for a channel dash because the channel dash has its only hope as an option on G1. It can be used to defend the baltic fleet or it can be used to ‘attack’ the british fleet, but many think buying subs is the way to go if the intention is to attack the brits. A carrier build primarily is used as a defensive platform because your typically only bringing fighters to defend if the UK player looks like hes gonna go and attack the Baltic fleet. Hence the “point” is the carrier is mainly protection to either defend baltic passively or directly by also bring in fighters.

The benifits of a channel dash are obvious but all those “IF’s” kinda damper its appeal. If you try that on G1 most likely you will lose the fleet and be in worse position than if you had just left it alone in baltic and done nothing.

Of course its possible to wait and build stuff and then send it out but as you grow so does the enemy.

I dont think you would recommend the channel dash as a standard idea given normal turn results up until G1.

I’ve done the channel dash twice now - the first time meant total obliteration of my fleet, the second time I was able to bring one sub around the Cape and into the Med by G8 - yeah I’d say it wasn’t worth it. But both times I believe the dash would still have been an option on G2 given the Allied fleet position.

So, you can build the AC for defence, and if opportunity presents itself have a very attractive fleet unification play in G2. Maybe all your better Allied players could play to thwart this (although I keep hearing reference to German fleet unification being unstoppable, which seems inconsistent now with saying that the channel dash is suicidal, so I assume that fleet unification would be a G2 or later play.)

There is a really interesting article on the fleet unification option over at caspian sub.  Recommended reading for anyone interested in this.

I think of “channel dash” where G1 forces, buying no fleet, move from the baltic on G1.

A different strategy is to unite them in SZ7 on G2, but staying in the Baltic G1. That is “not” my idea of a channel dash.

An an AC is as offensive/defensive as you make it so. It depends on what you buy, what you do with it, what else is bought, what your opponents do, etc.

Which is why I told IL not to try this paper in the first place.

Saying an AC is “merely defensive” is wrong. A fleet can be a great offensive weapon if you know what you are doing.

@Imperious:

Considering that the Soviets attack/conquer west russia and belorussia as part of their standard opening i have been tinkering with the solution to solve what would be the best thing for germany on turn one.

IL, I don’t see any single best choice move for Germany. Â

Germany is who will define the tone of the game for >90% of the games played.  The other 10% will be KJF games and even then Germany turn one moves will determine the success of that.

I do like the idea of identifying a seriese of moves ranging from a conservative 12 INF 1 ART ground units in Russia approach to a Med CV + 2 FTR build.  These would really fall into build options for different strategies with build variations to support each strategy.

@Imperious:

Many people buy that carrier and 8 infantry on G1, but i am thinking about other choices.

1. A battleship would cost 24 IPC which takes 2 hits and can use its attack for shore bombardment against western E, Finland, and Leningrad. This can pay for the extra cost in a few turns. The planes would be freed up to help defend more vital areas. In the long run its probably not a good idea to use planes to defend the fleet. Also if the allies attacked this fleet and things went bad you can take the battleship as a loss and save another piece that would otherwise be sunk.

2. buy two destroyers which give you two threes and keep your fighters used for land defence and out of harms way.

3. ignore the baltic fleet and wait and see buying only land units unless UK moves her ships in for the kill.

4. try to leave the baltic and join the fleet in the medd–- “The channel dash”

which if these plans do you favor and why. My intention is to make a strategy guide with all the standard plays for each player.

If I had the time to do this for each player, I would start with USSR.  They actually start with an absolute ground truth situation and are allied with two other players so they have the most deterministic approach to turns 1 and 2.  Beyond that, even the USSR is difficult to predict.

From the USSR strategy options, I would develop the Germany strategies with the ability to specifiy preconditions about USSR moves.

For example, as Germany, I like the “Eastern Front Screen Pass”.  This depends on an overly agressive USSR who does not send a FTR to AE.  If instead I get a USSR move that signals KJF, I need to rethink what I am going to do with an eye toward putting lots of pressure on Moscow and London.

Each of the German moves will tend to force some degree of counter from the Allies and they will still be pushing their own strategies.  I suspect that the US “play book” will be pretty vague.

I’ll nail down the “screen pass” option here after some more play testing and give a write up on it.

@rjclayton:

@Cobert:

try the channel dash, which rarely works since the american player can be an a****** and send a transport to algeria to block the unification.  Like frimmel said, its hoping for the best.

If US uses a transport blocker to algeria, can’t Germany just take it out in combat with your fighters and still get your med fleet to SZ7 in non-combat?

Ive made the embarassing mistake before of landing most of my planes in norway and having only one in weu to face a transport and a destroyer.Â

I dont know who said it, but I agree with whoever said they like having control of the mediterannean.

8. Build an Industrial Complex in Western Europe and shake up Atlantic UK/US pre-calculations.

You haven’t really lived until you’ve blockaded an Allied navy into the Baltic!  :evil:

~Josh

And leave Russia to beat you up from the east?

Yeah I know… it’s obviously not the best or most conservative strategy, but it sure is fun and it opens up a nice range of interesting new possibilities for Germany.  I’m not even serious about IL including it on his list, unless he reeeally wants to.  Russia can still be handled (I’ve managed it once or twice) but it will certainly be more difficult as you are down 3-5 land-units.

~Josh

Just some side notes

Also with the AC purchase.

not only does it give you a net of protection for a while, it allows you to re-take Norway 1-4 turns if you want it and it allows the Russians to pay most of the blood for trading territories with Germany Kar > Belo > Ukr  because soon it will be the Brits getting Kar for the Russians.

Here are my thoughts:

Channel Dash-Waste of a fleet, the UK & US airforces will make mince meat out of it before you can get to the med.

G2 fleet unification in SZ7-I have yet to have an opponent pull this off.  As the allied player I can see it coming and no allied player worth his salt would allow it (IMHO) and it is easily countered.

G1 buy with belo/WR opening no bid. Baltic CV, 3art, 4inf (this is 1 less unit than the 8inf buy but increase your offensive punch from 8 to 13).

@jsp4563:

Here are my thoughts:

Channel Dash-Waste of a fleet, the UK & US airforces will make mince meat out of it before you can get to the med.

G2 fleet unification in SZ7-I have yet to have an opponent pull this off.  As the allied player I can see it coming and no allied player worth his salt would allow it (IMHO) and it is easily countered.

G1 buy with belo/WR opening no bid. Baltic CV, 3art, 4inf (this is 1 less unit than the 8inf buy but increase your offensive punch from 8 to 13).

We had a huge discussion a few months ago regarding the fleet unification. You can place ships to try a block, but the Germans usually will unify them.

@squirecam:

@jsp4563:

Here are my thoughts:

Channel Dash-Waste of a fleet, the UK & US airforces will make mince meat out of it before you can get to the med.

G2 fleet unification in SZ7-I have yet to have an opponent pull this off.  As the allied player I can see it coming and no allied player worth his salt would allow it (IMHO) and it is easily countered.

G1 buy with belo/WR opening no bid. Baltic CV, 3art, 4inf (this is 1 less unit than the 8inf buy but increase your offensive punch from 8 to 13).

We had a huge discussion a few months ago regarding the fleet unification. You can place ships to try a block, but the Germans usually will unify them.

Not on G2, and if you were playing me “Not Ever”.  If you think it’s possible, give me your scenario.