France's role in Global 1940 SE

@FranceNeedsMorePower

Still, it’s hard for them to act independently. Your descriptions are how they assist the Allies. I guess by role he means a significantly independent task/goal and the ability to do it. For example, the Soviets or Chinese can do quite a lot by themselves with no other Allied powers (even if they’re heavily outgunned). France, not so much.

@FranceNeedsMorePower

Yep. But 90% of the time that’s usually done to help other Allied powers. See above what I think Andrew means by role. Not just being able to contribute in some way, but acting independently by itself in a siginificant way. France’s contribution is usually so small even compared to smaller powers like ANZAC and China that it doesn’t make sense to put them on the same footing as those two (I’ve had games where both became a monster, almost none with France).

@FranceNeedsMorePower You continue to confuse useful with having a role in the game. France has no role. Every Player wishes the French units would just convert to UK units as soon as France falls. Every unit on the board is useful, that does not mean the French Player, if anyone was unlucky enough to be only controlling France; would have any measurable role to play in the game.

Nevertheless, feel free to think anyway you want. This thread is not about whether France has a role or not so if you want to continue with this topic please open up a new thread. Thank you…

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

The role is taking as many axis units with them. It also says this in the rulebook.

Every Allied unit on the board is trying to take as many axis units with them as possible; the French units doing what every other single unit on the board tries to do does not mean they have a role that is unique to France. That is how all units are used. It is like saying all units are trying to win the game. Of course, all units are trying to win the game. But what is their specific role to win the game?

France does not collect any income in 90% of the games played. They have no specific role that is required to win the game. Every single French unit that survives the Fall of France could die without killing a single axis unit and the Allies can still win if the Allied Powers with roles can accomplish their goals. That is not true of the Allied Powers that actually do have a role. If they fail in their mission the Allies will lose.

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

It’s like saying Anzac does not have a role, which is do annoy Japan and be a mosquito.

ANZAC’s specific role is to trade the money islands and/or beef up the defensive strength of the US Fleet. ANZAC also has a unique advantage that it goes after the US and therefore it can reinforce areas that the US has taken.

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

Anyone who wants them to turn U.K. is mistaken. Having France go last may be bad but then can act like can openers, and have layered effects.

Actually that is not correct. French units cannot be can openers because Germany goes right after France. What French units can do is be blockers, especially in the Middle East, since they go after Italy and before Germany.

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

They can defend west north africa. They can defend with 3 guys and a fighter. They can also use their ships to attack convoys.

French units don’t defend west North Africa. What defends west North Africa is the Axis don’t want to take French areas that are collecting no money for the Allies only to have the territories retaken by British or American units and then be collected the rest of the game. As for ships - you are talking a single French destroyer 95% of the time and it doesn’t attack convoys, it almost always acts as a blocker. The truly only valuable resource the French have is the fighter, which almost always makes it to Moscow, and the 2 French units in London that help defend London and if the Allies make strong landings in Normandy act as defensive units there.

Now I have answered your points and questions. Please answer mine. What role do you think France has that is unique to France while collecting no money?

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

The Germans had to really think hard about how to take France.

Why? The French units can’t possibly take France back and the losses inflicted are insignificant if not, as shown below, detrimental.

On average the standard German attack (7 infantry, 3 artillery, 4 mechs + 6 armor) lose 7.5 units taking France. Even going up to 10 units lost that still leaves 4 mechanized infantry and 6 armor. Typically, Southern France falls to the Italians which completely makes your comment moot. Therefore, lets say, just for discussion, for some reason Southern France is not attacked. Maybe the Germans want it for a Med port. That gives France 4 infantry and 2 artillery, using your over stacked units, to counter attack France. Plus, a possible fighter from London.

Italy, normally, will put a single AAA into France before France goes so the maximum attacking force is 4 infantry, 2 artillery and a fighter vs 1 AAA, 4 mechanized infantry and 6 armor. The odds of winning that battle are 0.13% or 1 in 769 attempts. On average, the French kill 3.25 units or 2 German mechs for all intensive purposes. If the French sit and wait for the Germans to attack them they would kill more on average; 5.3 units.

(5.3 units assumes 6 defenders at 2 rolling only one round = 2 hits. PLUS one fighter in Moscow going 5 rounds = 3.3 hits. Total of 5.3 hits.)

So, again, why would the Germans think hard about taking France?

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

For can openers I mean against Italy.

France cannot can-open against Italy because Germany goes before any other Allied Power.

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

@AndrewAAGamer For can openers I mean against Italy. France does not have a unique role just like China, Anzac and Russia. There strategy/role is not unique it is straight forward. Same with France take as many units with them as possible. They have a role but it is not unique or strong. There role is minor but does exist. Also if the Brits don’t do really good in the Toronto raid the Italians may attack them instead of the French boats by Southern France. Also, what you said about the Anzac proves my point. Anzac role is to trade with the money islands is not really a role just a goal according to your standards. If That is part of their goal then part of Frances goal is to do what I said before, like Defending what they can of North Africa, ALSO assisting the Allies as you said before. You also said it can reenforce the areas the US takes same with France in Africa. France’s job also could be to annoy the Axis. They can do this in many ways. I could mention them if you would like.

Okay, let’s make this simple.

• The Allies CAN win the game even if there was not a single French unit on the Board at the end of Turn 1, before France goes. Therefore, France has no role in the game.

• The Allies CANNOT win the game if you remove any other Allied Power from the game. (Russia, China, US, UK and ANZAC.) Thus, all of these Allied Powers have a role in the game.

@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:

@AndrewAAGamer I highly doubt the Allies could win without France. Germany keeping all of it’s unit intact.

Well, first off, I didn’t say France was to be removed from the game completely. If you actually read what I wrote you would see…

The Allies CAN win the game even if there was not a single French unit on the Board at the end of Turn 1, before France goes.

…that I said after everyone else had already taken their Turn. Thus Germany has already attacked France and Italy has already attacked the Southern France Fleet.

However, there probably is a pretty solid argument that France and French units on the board are insignificant to the overall game. On average, the Axis should lose about $49 killing the French units. (see below)

• France attack = 7.5 units or $23
• Southern France Fleet = 0.84 units or $5
• Fighter in Moscow = 3.3 units or $10
• Remaining units = 3.6 units or $11

For taking France the Germans collect $19. Therefore, the entire French contribution to the game destroying Axis TUV is roughly $30.

For the Allies, excluding France, their combined total TUV is $1,845 to start the game. I think a very fair average in collection over 10 Turns is an additional $1,750, or an average of $175 per Turn. (Yes, I know this is probably to low but I am being conservative). Thus, the combined TUV of the other Allied powers is $3,595 by the end of Turn 10. $30 is 0.8% of that amount or said another way less than 1% of the entire production. If the entire French contribution to the game affects it less than 1%, in just the first 10 Turns, as it continues to lessen over time, then again, a pretty solid argument could be made that their presence is irrelevant to the final outcome.

Having said that France is also the most important power in the game. If the Germans fail to take France on Turn 1, then most likely, unless the player’s experience level’s are vastly different, the Axis are doomed. Luckily the failure to take France, with the standard attack, is only 13 out of every 10,000 games. Though, I have seen it happen twice in games that I saw, yet did not participate in. Never trust the dice…