AARHE: Rule files

how about 5 pages?

That would be like a holy grail. Lets aim for like 5-8 pages.

Ill compile some things and post. Lets leave out the neutrals unless its the 1939 version which should be historically scripted dip. and tech.

It can be Lite or Light. In fact your in charge of what its called.

The idea is to taste a weak version of many of the ideas written in 6th grade English so anybody can understand it. No explanations or references, each idea is self contained so you don’t need to cross reference. Lets keep the headlined concepts in and leave out chrome.

It should be able to be read in 20 minutes.

Logistic costs are quite expensive. Maybe 1 IPC per land unit in amphibious assault is too much.
How about 1 IPC per transport instead?

==== What type of invasion occured? where and how much was landed? Did the landing team get to keep its territory or was it a ‘hit and run’?

I noticed Capture of defender’s retreating army to not affect gameplay much. You roll for each tank in excess of defender at 1…just doesn’t do much. Could consider removing it.

============= im working on something and i also have this opinion. Lets get rid of it, but i propose this to replace it:

If you capture a territory from the defender and you have armor ( units moving 2 spaces) and they only moved 1 space to enter combat, then they should be allowed to move and attack units in adjacent territory’s. This would be blitzkreig.

Combat Reinforcement: Land Reinforcement has complex restrictions, and we are talking about a passive turn decision. Currently there is one cycle delay and if defender does not survive first cycle then its too late combat is over and the reinforcement have to go back where they came from. Now then you have to remember those units as they can’t do non-combat reinforcement.
We have defender retreat already, so its not too bad to not allow land units ability to reinforce.
I recall you didn’t like it much anyway.

============== thank god almighty you finally see my point!. Get rid of this idea ASAP. God i really hated it, but allowed it to remain because im a team player. I am sending you the Iron Cross with oak leaves direct from Berlin HQ

Air reinforcement (DAS) remains. But I am thinking to remove the delay (there is delay only when relocating from 2 spaces away). Or, only allow DAS a range of 1 (instead of the current 2).

=============== Lets make the range only adjacent planes can DAS. or we can say planes adjacent come on round 2, planes 2 spaces away come in round 3.

Counter Air (CA) mission was actually used by people. Recall CA stops the defending air units from relocating to a different territory.
Was it the intention that those defending air units can defending in the current territory?

================ Yes they can also perform defense. But only one offensive air mission and CA is one such operation. Im glad they see the value in this form of combat. Remember they fight at Air dogfight values.

eg. UK performs CA mission at SEU so German air units at SEU can’t relocate to defend WEU. Now, if UK also invades SEU should the German air units at SEU be occupied by UK’s CA mission or should they be able to defend SEU?

==== thats what CA is. CA is an attempt to crush enemy planes. surviving planes can STILL perform DAS missions.Its just a forced dogfight.

Ground Interdiction (GI) mission was almost not touched. It can be removed if we go ahead and remove the land units combat reinforcement.

================= You must try it. Its very valuable to prevent the reinforcement of the counterattack, especially when you have invaded and don’t want to get pushed off the continent by an attack.

The simplified Naval Combat Sequence (from discussion season end of last year resulting in removal of screening and other bits) was under test. People still had a hard time getting the naval combat seqeuence.
This one will require a discussion season of its own when we do nothing else about AARHE but this.

===== ok lets start one. Post how you like it revised and we will trim it.

I also wonder if In Amphibious Assault can be a bit simply. Its not the sequence here. Its how only infantry fight in first cycle. Attacker needs to surive first cycle to offload tanks and artillery for second cycle. Its realistic to say they must secure the beach before offloading tanks but then again you wonder if its too tactical / below level of abstract.
Arillery firing in opening-fire and infrastructure defence raising infantry defence by 1 is already giving defender nice bonus.

=======================ok we can reduce this to one simple sequence, but let defending artillery first in each round.

post it and we will have a look.

I am working on a new version using these rules for Axis and Allies Europe. Your part of this naturally. WE call it AAEHE

AXIS AND ALLIES EUROPE HISTORICAL EDITION…

Map is 85% done.

I need the rules in word file sent ASAP. I will make the first effort to get things started and you will finish.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on March 23, 2008, 04:22:12 pm
==== What type of invasion occured? where and how much was landed? Did the landing team get to keep its territory or was it a ‘hit and run’?
The invasion is amphibious assault.
Doesn’t matter how many landed. The current rule is 1 IPC per land unit.

You asked where was it landed.
Are you considering making it different?

Could make it…
no cost for normal terrain. 1 IPC for mountainous terrain (and then get rid of mountainous offload limit).

I just want to know if this was a real invasion or you just landed to exchange a few pieces with the enemy and get pushed off. That type of thing is not what were after and as a tactic were trying to cut out. Invasions need to be a major undertaking where a substantial investment is offered and the goal is victory. In ww2 if Normany failed the allies would take 2-3 years to regroup and make another effort. it would have been disaster. This game should model that significance, but rather the very next turn some peeps just land again and again…every turn in the same spot…ridiculous.

Quote
If you capture a territory from the defender and you have armor ( units moving 2 spaces) and they only moved 1 space to enter combat, then they should be allowed to move and attack units in adjacent territory’s. This would be blitzkreig.
Well there is a problem with letting Armor attack another space. It breaks the game mechanics of each unit only fighting in one space per turn.

*if armor can attack multiple spaces per turn, then why not air units?
*it could get in the way of defender retreats, requiring more complexity to the rule

As you see if we break that game mechanics, it could gets messy.

ok nevermind. lets junk it.

Quote
=============== Lets make the range only adjacent planes can DAS. or we can say planes adjacent come on round 2, planes 2 spaces away come in round 3.
I go for only adjacent planes can DAS

(rule is so much simpler not having to describe what happens in the different outcomes due to delay)

ok adjacent then.

Quote
================ Yes they can also perform defense.
note thats means attacking CA air units perform one thing (a cycle dogfight against the defending air units)
while those defending air units perform two things (the dogfight plus normal combat in the territory)

\one mission on the active turn and one mission as the passive player

so the attacking CA air units perform less than the defending air units
is that weird?

no this is not correct. those attacking planes doing CA can also perform DAS when they are passive on the other players turn.

Quote
==== thats what CA is. CA is an attempt to crush enemy planes. surviving planes can STILL perform DAS missions.Its just a forced dogfight.
oh…thats not the current wording
currently defending air units targeted by CA cannot perform DAS this [passive] turn

Thats a mistake. they should be allowed.

Quote
================= You must try it. Its very valuable to prevent the reinforcement of the counterattack, especially when you have invaded and don’t want to get pushed off the continent by an attack.
ah yes
even though we are removing combat reinforcement of land units, it can still stop non-combat reinforcement

yes and you also know that would be its mission on that turn. those planes cannot perform other missions. Its fair. Its basically the rule from AA D-day, but scripted for strategic game.

Quote
=======================ok we can reduce this to one simple sequence, but let defending artillery first in each round.
post it and we will have a look.
ok next thing to do
(probably not realistic to give defending artillery opening-fire in every turn)

Well the defender should have something to face tanks showing up right off the bat. Perhaps all its units first round fire preemtively?

Quote
I am working on a new version using these rules for Axis and Allies Europe. Your part of this naturally. WE call it AAEHE

AXIS AND ALLIES EUROPE HISTORICAL EDITION….

Map is 85% done.

I need the rules in word file sent ASAP. I will make the first effort to get things started and you will finish.
Well its in Latex now. So I can give you a simple text file. A nice word file would take time me to format.
Alternative we could look into PDF editor (eg. Adobe) or Postscript editor (another output of Latex).

Or, you can use the program I am using. Lyx. Its a GUI for Latex.
So the program looks like a word processor like MsWord.

Send me whatever you got so i can get it on my page, plus links for lyx or whatever its called.

Quote
This game should model that significance, but rather the very next turn some peeps just land again and again…every turn in the same spot…ridiculous.

Quote
note thats means attacking CA air units perform one thing (a cycle dogfight against the defending air units)
while those defending air units perform two things (the dogfight plus normal combat in the territory)
one mission on the active turn and one mission as the passive player

====== Planes fighting dogfights and then defending or attacking is not two missions. Its part of the same mission except your clearing the sky of planes before your hits count against land targets. Thats still the same mission.

DAS is no longer an air missions but rather a simple relocation
(it is called air reinforcement to distinguish it from CA/SBR/GI air missions)

this is because current DAS rule is merely a relocation of air units
hence I might as well remove the DAS word all together

(in the old days DAS air units has to return to original territory
but that required a paragraph of complex rules to cater for battle outcomes and to fit into other rules like defender retreat
so now DAS simply gets to you relocate your air units)

DAS is the proper word for this mission. its a real military term. Air reinforcement is nothing in the lexicon of the military

Quote
Quote
so the attacking CA air units perform less than the defending air units
is that weird?
no this is not correct. those attacking planes doing CA can also perform DAS when they are passive on the other players turn.
Quote
Quote
oh…thats not the current wording
currently defending air units targeted by CA cannot perform DAS this [passive] turn
Thats a mistake. they should be allowed.

I mean like this…

during active turn, air units that perform CA/SBR/GI OR normal combat (1 thing)
this is so units fight in one space per turn
also this is so we don’t end up with sort of two combat phases (to resolve air missions and then to resolve normal combat)

during passive turn, air units perform normal combat only (1 thing)
unless it was targeted by CA, where it then additionally performs dogfighting against CA air units (2 things)

++++++++++++++++Thats correct except defending from a CA is not a mission. its basic defense. Defending against SBR is also not a mission. A mission is any time where you move to a new location to engage the enemy. DAS is a mission because your potentially flying to another territory, while defending against the enemy in your own territory is not a unique mission. So its still one mission as active and one mission as passive.

Quote
Quote
(probably not realistic to give defending artillery opening-fire in every turn)
Well the defender should have something to face tanks showing up right off the bat. Perhaps all its units first round fire preemtively?
or how about all attacking land units fight at 1 on first round?

and by the way we still let defending artillery fire in opening-fire on first round.

==============OK all attacking units fire at 1, and artillery for defense fire first. thats it add it.

This game should model that significance, but rather the very next turn some peeps just land again and again…every turn in the same spot…ridiculous.
so since there is a cost penalty for “being pushed off”
could cost of amphibious assault be reduced to 1 IPC each transport?

+++++++++++++++++++++ok fine make it so…

Quote
==============OK all attacking units fire at 1, and artillery for defense fire first. thats it add it.
so with that we get rid of art/arm offloading second cycle thing

could a similar simplification be made for amphibious assault on mountainous?
lets says all attacking land units fight at 0, on 1st cycle amphibious assault on mountainous
and then we get rid of offloading limit for amphibious assault on mountainous
Quote

+++++++++++++++ ok make it consistent for both…

DAS is the proper word for this mission. its a real military term. Air reinforcement is nothing in the lexicon of the military
Quote
A mission is any time where you move to a new location to engage the enemy. DAS is a mission because your potentially flying to another territory, while defending against the enemy in your own territory is not a unique mission. So its still one mission as active and one mission as passive.
yeah I undestand DAS is real military term
but thats not what the rule is about
the rule is about relocating air units in your passive turn, before conduct combat

DAS refers to a more generic thing in real life
like how you said “potentially flying to another territory”

DAS in current territory is simply normal combat

the rule is about DAS in adjacent territory, hence I suggest called it just Air Reinforcement or whatever the military term is

++++++++++++++ any time the defender send planes to assist in combat its a DAS mission. Not “combat reinforcement”

Quote
++++++++++++++++Thats correct except defending from a CA is not a mission. its basic defense. Defending against SBR is also not a mission.
its not about calling it an air mission
defending air units can do what you call “basic defense” (ie. one cycle dogfight)
but that is the entire thing attacking CA air units gets to do this turn (ie. the same one cycle dogfight)

after doing this “basic defense”, defending air units also gets to perform normal combat (if that territory is also attacked conventionally)

+++++++++++++ I think i see what your saying. OK planes that defended in CA can also defend against sttacks. Otherwise CA would be a trick to avoid multi round combat of dogfights where the attacker has brought lots of bombers to attack land units, but the trick was to find a air mission of limited duration that would remove the bombers getting in. So thats why the defender can perform both.

thats like letting defending air units do two things at the same time
Quote
Quote
oh…thats not the current wording
currently defending air units targeted by CA cannot perform DAS this [passive] turn
Thats a mistake. they should be allowed.
so to not allow them do two things at the same time
I am think attacking CA air units should tie down defending air units
then they both only do one thing this turn

The attacker given equal odds in terms of material is always at a disadvantage, because the defender can recover because the fight is over his own land, so travel time is cut and ability to defend is easier for him because he has less distance, while the attacker has to fly from far away with limited fuel and ammo so he can have limited time to deal with dogfights, etc.

CA is a way to milk down the enemy airforce. Eventually you will have to attack a territory with enemy planes and land forces and finish the job. But its definatly a good tactic when you are land units poor and air force rich.

Quote
+++++++++++++ I think i see what your saying. OK planes that defended in CA can also defend against sttacks. Otherwise CA would be a trick to avoid multi round combat of dogfights where the attacker has brought lots of bombers to attack land units, but the trick was to find a air mission of limited duration that would remove the bombers getting in. So thats why the defender can perform both.
hehe actually I am saying the opposite
that they shouldn’t be able to do two things at the same time
but fine that just depends on our model of timeline

anyway defending air units shall not defend in two space
3 CA air units should tie down 3 defending air units, which shall not perform DAS

======= ok fine so if they get CA, they are stopped from flying over to perform DAS, but they still can defend their own territory if also attacked.  It is possible for the attacker to do CA, to stop a ‘horde’ of defending planes from performing DAS and take it on the chin as they say, this rule will stop everybody from putting all the planes in one territory, because the attacker can send just one plane on CA and stop like 6 planes from doing DAS, but he will learn and disperse his air force into air fronts each supporting segments of the line. But the rule of 1:1 for CA missions is good also because that exception wont get ‘tricked’ by the system.

make it so.

ok fine.

all you need to type is:

Economic Isolation of small islands:
If you occupy the sea zone that surrounds the small island groups, the controlling player of that island group does not receive income until the sea zone is cleared of enemy ships.

now heres the next part:

A sea zone part of a path* [see Spending or Saving IPC] is a convoy sea zone. Each hostile naval unit
(except Transport) destroys 1 IPC. This is applied to IPC going via the path.

rewrite it without the mumbo jumbo.

1. Each German or Italian naval unit outside the Baltic and Mediterranean sea can strip one IPC of income from either UK or USA (if at war).

2. Each Japanese Naval unit in the Pacific and within in any path of sea zones between British or American factories and any of her controlled income producing territories can cost either of these players 1 IPC.

3. Each British and American Submarine in the Pacific Ocean in any path of sea zones between Japanese factories and any of her controlled income producing territories can cost the Japanese player 1 IPC.

These ideas and what we have from your text are totally different. What you wrote allows:

1. Soviets to attack German IPC
2. British to attack Italian
3. British to attack German IPC
4. American to attack German IPC

Reality: Germany didn’t have any merchant trade by sea except by iron ore deposits from Sweden. And the Soviets never had any capability to interfere with it.

Britain didn’t sink any Italian merchant ships, they sunk transports sending supplies to support DAK, and this was 85% done by fighters based in Malta.

Britain didn’t sink any Japanese merchant trade either.

Japan did sink some American trade in the Pacific. VERY LITTLE

American subs pulverized Japanese trading in the mid and late war period as they closed inside to Japan. It should have been persued more because it nearly starved Japan

Quote
Economic Isolation of small islands:
If you occupy the sea zone that surrounds the small island groups, the controlling player of that island group does not receive income until the sea zone is cleared of enemy ships.
Just because an island (eg. East Indies) is under blockade, resources (4 IPC) don’t just evaporate.
The resources can be spent on the island itself.
Hence I tried to incorporate it into convoy raiding, to keep it real.

But as mentioned previously I am not fond of allowing one single naval unit to destroy everything. I think convoy raiding is enough.

++++++++++++++ But that was the point of the greater east Asia prosperity sphere, to build a insurmountable line of fortified outposts of islands to protect Japans holdings. If Japan cant do that they should not get the income. Perhaps we can say on the second turn of isolation, the owning player does not receive income. That would give japan a chance to recover. Besides you keep bringing up that 4 IPC thing, when it is only the most resource rich island on the map, while most of these buggers are 1 IPC.

Quote
rewrite it without the mumbo jumbo.
Heres the problem.
I prefer it written short, consistent, and in game terms.
You prefer the W@W style. Static, nation oriented, historic replay style of writing.

Its not Xeno W@W, rather its more clear to people who are just picking up these rules for the first time and don’t want to have to figure what your getting at and can clearly understand whats going on in a self contained writing style. Its not important if you want a universal writing style, what is important is the mass players who benefit from this can get on with playing the game as soon as they finish reading it ONE TIME.

We shouldn’t have to remember which particular player can be raided by which particular players.
We shouldn’t let players have immunity even if the game goes differently to history.

++++++++++These rules are also trying to balance the game, The axis are in need of some basic tools considering the fact that they are economically totally outclassed. And we address this by giving play balance and some historical justification. Your point would be correct if each nation started out with the same IPC and the same military forces.

Quote

1. Each German or Italian naval unit outside the Baltic and Mediterranean sea can strip one IPC of income from either UK or USA (if at war).
2. Each Japanese Naval unit in the Pacific and within in any path of sea zones between British or American factories and any of her controlled income producing territories can cost either of these players 1 IPC.
3. Each British and American Submarine in the Pacific Ocean in any path of sea zones between Japanese factories and any of her controlled income producing territories can cost the Japanese player 1 IPC.
   I’ve already explained why static systems are unrealistic.
   You can read the back log if you wish.

++++ what is written above is not a “static system” its just an outline of how income is stripped by naval ships, so that people are not confused into thinking that the axis are in the tank even more because we went against history in a variant designed to model History, and secondly, you made everybody have the same ability to sack 4 IPC or whatever because you want to give the allies even more things they can use their superior fleet for which bring imbalance.

I see this time you’ve expanded your system with wordings like “path”.
Its getting longer and longer. But it still doesn’t get rid of problems I’ve already mentioned.

What you wrote allows:
*10 German submarines at distant unrelated sea zones (eg. Argentina) hit UK for 10 IPC per turn
*10 Japanese submarines at Hawaii hit US for 10 IPC per turn
*10 US submarines at New Guinea hit Japan for 10 IPC per turn

++++++++ yes this is true, but its also true that the Axis cant pay for these items unless they are not spending it for land units. In the case of Argentina they are sinking ships that travel either to and from S America or go around the southern end. Look at a map of where the U-Boats operated and you will have the correct answer. www.uboat.net

In the case of Hawaii, this is also true. If japan can build that many subs and send them near American territories, then the USA player has either lost the game already or Germany just fell a bit early and they used every thing possible for Europe.

In the case of New Guinea, you can also look up what happened to Japanese shipping by American subs. If America built the historical equal to 10 subs, it would have been really effective.

Quote

These ideas and what we have from your text are totally different. What you wrote allows:

1. Soviets to attack German IPC
2. British to attack Italian
3. British to attack German IPC
4. American to attack German IPC

Nope.
The simple consistent rule models actual shipping.
Russia, Germany and US territories are lumped together. For the most of it you can’t hit their shipping. Until the status quo changes.

That consistent rule as you call it is not a historical model from ww2. Its an everything for everybody approach that turns a historical game into checkers. Otherwise whats stopping the American player from building SS panzers? You cant just lump together stuff that didn’t happen in world war two in sole pursuit of “universality” Remember this IS a historical version.

However if Germany takes Africa and they want to spend the money at Berlin, they’ll have to protect the related sea zones.

++++++++ Nope. I already made it clear that Germany is not effected by IPC naval raids. Besides they use the medd as the focal point of supplies, which the allies can only attack directly with planes if they control Malta or whatever.

And if Germany controls southern America, then the game is usually over anyway…

Quote
Reality: Germany didn’t have any merchant trade by sea except by iron ore deposits from Sweden. And the Soviets never had any capability to interfere with it.

Britain didn’t sink any Italian merchant ships, they sunk transports sending supplies to support DAK, and this was 85% done by fighters based in Malta.

Britain didn’t sink any Japanese merchant trade either.

Japan did sink some American trade in the Pacific. VERY LITTLE

American subs pulverized Japanese trading in the mid and late war period as they closed inside to Japan. It should have been persued more because it nearly starved Japan

Thats historic replay.
Its only realistic is the game happens the same as history.

My system is basic, universal and remains realistic regardless even if Germany takes Africa, or US takes South Pacific.

That would be fine for a ‘universal’ version of Revised. This is a Historical version. It is also a balanced version. Not one time in playtest have i ever used what you wrote on that 4 IPC thingy, rather we used the historical model, because for balance reasons the axis have a very small navy and would have to retool the economy totally differently to start buying 10 subs. If they did that Russians would crush Germany