Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships

@sjelso the plane, assuming fighter here has a MAP range of 1. Seaplanes have 2. In order to conduct MAP, you need to have a landing spot, from which the plane came from, I.e. land zone, or carrier. If your plane stays on MAP, and your Carrier moves away, meaning more than one space, the plane is automatically eliminated.

So to attack a sub that does not want to fight, you need a plane on MAP, and/or a plane on MAP and a destroyer.

@sjelso @manincellv Got it, 1x per sub + 2 Mod so one sub max possible = 7 (6+2-1) as the UK lowest roll is = 1.

Correct . Subs and convoy raiding is an important part of GW36. If done correctly, Germany can spread out the UK fleet and wreck havoc on their economy early on in the war. Later, once, escort ships go out, then radar and ASW, raiding is over for Germany unless it has evolved it subs to advanced subs. Same goes for the UK if Germany has advanced subs and the Uk does not have radar or ASW.

@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:

@manincellv Ok…so the carrier could sit in SZ22 or with the U-Boat in SZ21 and the plane would fly MAP safely and attack the sub with a place to land on the carrier 1 or fewer SZ away.

Correct.

The U-Boat could Combat Move on it’s turn to SZ21 and attack the carrier, the carrier can defend/roll at a Lt CV defense hit @ 1.

Correct, and the fighter would gets its defense roll of 6. Here is a good point. If the sub hits on a first strike, the carrier cannot fire back and sinks. I assume the fighter still can and if it misses, the sub submerges, and the fighter is eliminated.

@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:

@manincellv I wish there was a Playbook that provided more examples. The rules do not do this justice and like I said, 16 games in and we pretty much bypassed Convoy Raiding…just didn’t seem important and too easy to kill subs. Thank you for your input!

It’s hard to kill them. You need a plane on MAP, which are limited to 1 SZ, unless a seaplane, and/or a DD. Now once UK develops ASW, then you automatically get to roll in that one SZ you on escort duty for a possible hit on the Sub.

For subs to stay alive, just avoid SZ that planes can reach on MAP.

@sjelso one other thing. A sub before it submerges, gets to roll a die to see if it got a hit. Foe example, a plane on MAP and a DD attack the sub. Both miss and the sub rolls a hit. The DD is sunk and then the sub submerges.

@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@manincellv So a normal plane (not seaplane nor long-range tech), from London, can patrol SZ25 and that is it? British Midlands can patrol one of the following SZ10, 11, 24 or 25.

Correct.

@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.

No. They get one roll.

@manincellv said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.

No. They get one roll.

I agree with everything manincellv has written, except this.

9.4 Retreats from Combat: Submarines
Attacking or Defending Submarines may submerge (i.e. retreat but remain in the same sea zone), in addition to retreating to an adjacent sea zone in lieu of making their next Attack or Defense roll."

@hbg-gw-enthusiast That is correct, and the question becomes when does the sub submerge.

The choice to submerge can happen after the attacker has rolled his dice and the casualties seen, but before the sub gets his defensive die roll.

So if there are no hits from the attacker, the sub will submerge without a die roll. If there are hits, then the sub will get his one die roll.

@sjelso See below.

@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.

Yes, sorry he does forfeit his roll.

@manincellv Wrong, a sub may submerge or roll. However, it gets to wait to see if IT is hit before it decides. If the sub gets hit it obviously is no submerging and is taking its final shot.

@trig correct!

@sjelso Think of MAP this way;

1. You would need your aircraft that have a MAP range of 1 to be within 1 space of the intended sub target when you begin your turn in order to attack him. Whether you move your plane 1 space or your carrier 1 space to attack him is irrelevant.
2. Seaplanes and Medium Bombers with long range aircraft tech can move up to 2 spaces to attack the sub because they have a MAP of 2.
3. The only thing you can pair 1:1 to attack the sub with is a destroyer.
4. If you miss the sub he can submerge. If you hit him he might as well fire back since he’s already going to die anyway. He can hit the destroyer but he can’t hit the plane. If there’s no destroyer don’t bother rolling the sub.

It’s always a good idea to have a destroyer present with an aircraft carrier when in open waters. If the sub attacks the carrier and gets a lucky hit then the planes will die if they have no legal landing space.

In regular naval combat any naval unit with an attack value can hit a sub if he fires at your ships. He has chosen top be in the fight and is open to being hit. He can either roll or submerge in any round of combat, but once he submerges he can’t pop up later in the same battle to fight again. He’s done after he submerges.

Advanced subs can only be hit by the planes on MAP. Destroyers have no ability to pair with the planes against them. If the Germans develop Advanced subs then you will be well advised to develop ASW.

I don’t blame you for not doing any convoying in your first few games. I did the same thing. Once you start though you will realize the value of it and discover that it really is a game within a game. It takes awhile to learn how to incorporate all of the aspects of GW into your game effectively. I’m just now learning how to be more effective with Strategic Bombing.