Yeah.
Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships
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Ok…read through the GW36 sub, convoy, MAP many times. 16 games in and nobody uses convoy because I don’t we think we fully understand it.
Scenario (assume all valid/true):
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U-Boat in SZ21, alone. German turn, U-Boat rolls a 6, UK rolls a 3. UK loses 3 IPCs immediately.
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U-Boat in SZ21. UK, on its turn, combat moves Lt CV with fighter and a light cruiser to SZ21. UK can attack the U-Boat immediately as CV with a plane always has MAP. The light cruiser can also attack, but the U-Boat gets 1st strike because the UK does not have a Destroyer.
U-Boat if not killed can dive and on the German turn roll against the convoy line without any threat of being sunk. The UK can attempt to sink it again during the UK combat movement.
- U-Boat in SZ21. UK combat moves Lt CV with fighter and a light cruiser and a destroyer to SZ21. UK can attack the U-Boat as CV always have MAP. The light cruiser and destroyer can also attack the U-Boat. No 1st strike for the U-Boat due to destroyer.
U-Boat if not killed can dive and on the German turn roll against the convoy line without any threat of being sunk. The UK can attempt to sink it again during the UK combat movement.
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U-Boat alone in SZ79. The U-Boat can roll a 1D6 (+2 DRM for Sub), 3 times, one time against the UK 3 line from S. Africa, one time against the UK Mediterranean line of 6 and one time against the UK 6 line running along the coast of Portugal? SZ79 is the intersection of 3 convoy lines totaling 15 IPCs available for convoy raiding.
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Any ship can attack a sub provided there is a plane on MAT.
Thank you. Please comment, provide suggestions, etc.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:
U-Boat in SZ21, alone. German turn, U-Boat rolls a 6, UK rolls a 3. UK loses 3 IPCs immediately. I believe this is wrong. The Sub has a +2 modifier, therefore UK would lose 5 up to the max. that the convoy line is worth.
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@manincellv Right!..forgot the sub modifier of +2. Thanks!
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:
U-Boat in SZ21. UK, on its turn, combat moves Lt CV with fighter and a light cruiser to SZ21. UK can attack the U-Boat immediately as CV with a plane always has MAT. The light cruiser can also attack, but the U-Boat gets 1st strike because the UK does not have a Destroyer.
I believe this is also incorrect. Carriers cannot move before your plane goes on MAP. The reason is this movement by planes is a form of combat movement. Your carrier is not moving into combat movement. When you refer to the plane on the carrier as always having MAP, that is correct, if a sub tries to go through the SZ.
The light cruiser cannot attack if the plane is on MAP and the sub is in that SZ. Only a destroyer paired with the plane can attack.
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@manincellv Ok…so the plane could fly from the carrier, lets say from a carrier in SZ24, establish MAP and then attack the sub.
Soooo…only Destroyers with a plane on MAP can attack a sub or just the plane on MAP by itself? No other combination of MAP/Plane and ship…wow. And an Advanced Sub, only plane on MAP.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:
U-Boat alone in SZ79. The U-Boat can roll a 1D6 (+2 DRM for Sub), 3 times, one time against the UK 3 line from S. Africa, one time against the UK Mediterranean line of 6 and one time against the UK 6 line running along the coast of Portugal? SZ79 is the intersection of 3 convoy lines totaling 15 IPCs available for convoy raiding
Sub here rolls one time with modifier. The advantage you have with multiple convoy lines is that you can raid up to the value of all lines combined. So if you had 3 subs in SZ 79, then you could roll 3 times for the possibility of 15 IPPs.
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@manincellv Got it, 1x per sub + 2 Mod so one sub max possible = 7 (6+2-1) as the UK lowest roll is = 1.
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@sjelso the plane, assuming fighter here has a MAP range of 1. Seaplanes have 2. In order to conduct MAP, you need to have a landing spot, from which the plane came from, I.e. land zone, or carrier. If your plane stays on MAP, and your Carrier moves away, meaning more than one space, the plane is automatically eliminated.
So to attack a sub that does not want to fight, you need a plane on MAP, and/or a plane on MAP and a destroyer.
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@sjelso @manincellv Got it, 1x per sub + 2 Mod so one sub max possible = 7 (6+2-1) as the UK lowest roll is = 1.
Correct . Subs and convoy raiding is an important part of GW36. If done correctly, Germany can spread out the UK fleet and wreck havoc on their economy early on in the war. Later, once, escort ships go out, then radar and ASW, raiding is over for Germany unless it has evolved it subs to advanced subs. Same goes for the UK if Germany has advanced subs and the Uk does not have radar or ASW.
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@manincellv Ok…so the carrier could sit in SZ22 or with the U-Boat in SZ21 and the plane would fly MAP safely and attack the sub with a place to land on the carrier 1 or fewer SZ away.
The U-Boat could Combat Move on it’s turn to SZ21 and attack the carrier, the carrier can defend/roll at a Lt CV defense hit @ 1.
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@manincellv I wish there was a Playbook that provided more examples. The rules do not do this justice and like I said, 16 games in and we pretty much bypassed Convoy Raiding…just didn’t seem important and too easy to kill subs. Thank you for your input!
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:
@manincellv Ok…so the carrier could sit in SZ22 or with the U-Boat in SZ21 and the plane would fly MAP safely and attack the sub with a place to land on the carrier 1 or fewer SZ away.
Correct.
The U-Boat could Combat Move on it’s turn to SZ21 and attack the carrier, the carrier can defend/roll at a Lt CV defense hit @ 1.
Correct, and the fighter would gets its defense roll of 6. Here is a good point. If the sub hits on a first strike, the carrier cannot fire back and sinks. I assume the fighter still can and if it misses, the sub submerges, and the fighter is eliminated.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAT and other ships:
@manincellv I wish there was a Playbook that provided more examples. The rules do not do this justice and like I said, 16 games in and we pretty much bypassed Convoy Raiding…just didn’t seem important and too easy to kill subs. Thank you for your input!
It’s hard to kill them. You need a plane on MAP, which are limited to 1 SZ, unless a seaplane, and/or a DD. Now once UK develops ASW, then you automatically get to roll in that one SZ you on escort duty for a possible hit on the Sub.
For subs to stay alive, just avoid SZ that planes can reach on MAP.
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@manincellv Makes sense. Guess the moral of the story is, don’t send a lone Lt CV and plane…lol…
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@sjelso one other thing. A sub before it submerges, gets to roll a die to see if it got a hit. Foe example, a plane on MAP and a DD attack the sub. Both miss and the sub rolls a hit. The DD is sunk and then the sub submerges.
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@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.
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@manincellv So a normal plane (not seaplane nor long-range tech), from London, can patrol SZ25 and that is it? British Midlands can patrol one of the following SZ10, 11, 24 or 25.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@manincellv So a normal plane (not seaplane nor long-range tech), from London, can patrol SZ25 and that is it? British Midlands can patrol one of the following SZ10, 11, 24 or 25.
Correct.
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@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.
No. They get one roll.
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@manincellv said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.
No. They get one roll.
I agree with everything manincellv has written, except this.
9.4 Retreats from Combat: Submarines
Attacking or Defending Submarines may submerge (i.e. retreat but remain in the same sea zone), in addition to retreating to an adjacent sea zone in lieu of making their next Attack or Defense roll."
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