Sea lion

Thanks P@nther. That’s what I thought it was.

The US has absolutely no reason not to declare war on Germany and Italy after a J1. I’m not sure what you’re debating about. Declare war and move your green stuff wherever you want in the Atlantic.

If you can get your fighter from Eastern US to London and the UK has done everything it can to defend itself, then it would probably be a good idea to do that. The fighter would be eating away at the German aircraft. Even if the Americans lost the fighter, as long as they’re taking German air with them it is a good trade for the Allies. That’s fewer planes to assault Russia and Allied ships in the Atlantic and the �Med. You can get your fighters to London by landing it on Iceland US1 and then London US2.

You can also do something like this, which would be enhanced is there was a J1;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X6LjB8bCbw

Agreed GHG. And US fighters couldnt make it to UK anyway in 1 turn.

The “real” question then becomes in regards to Sea Lion is this. IF Japan goes J1 does that eliminate Germany from performing Sea Lion later than G2? The USA has a lot of options at its disposal at the start of the game + their Turn 1 build to shut down Sea Lion dead in its tracks if the USA wants to. If the USA cannot stop the G2 dice fest in London and Germany takes it the USA will coming storming in on USA3 and just retake it.

Seems like a lot of dead German IPC in units for a one turn sacking of London.

@PainState:

The “real” question then becomes in regards to Sea Lion is this. IF Japan goes J1 does that eliminate Germany from performing Sea Lion later than G2? The USA has a lot of options at its disposal at the start of the game + their Turn 1 build to shut down Sea Lion dead in its tracks if the USA wants to. If the USA cannot stop the G2 dice fest in London and Germany takes it the USA will coming storming in on USA3 and just retake it.

Seems like a lot of dead German IPC in units for a one turn sacking of London.

This is my whole point of building heavily in the Atlantic on the first 2 turns. Do what you can to make it a foolish move by Germany to do Sealion on G3. For the Allies to win the game the UK is going to need to control Africa, the Middle East, and the Med and they can’t do that if they don’t get a start on it until it’s too late and Italy has become a beast. The US should have plenty of time to build in the Pacific after turn 2. There’s nothing stopping them from moving ships from the Atlantic through the Panama Canal if you decide that you don’t want to use them there after Germany spends their big wad of money on turn 2.

@PainState:

The “real” question then becomes in regards to Sea Lion is this. IF Japan goes J1 does that eliminate Germany from performing Sea Lion later than G2? The USA has a lot of options at its disposal at the start of the game + their Turn 1 build to shut down Sea Lion dead in its tracks if the USA wants to. If the USA cannot stop the G2 dice fest in London and Germany takes it the USA will coming storming in on USA3 and just retake it.

Seems like a lot of dead German IPC in units for a one turn sacking of London.

But, in reality, that sacking of London can potentially give Italy the pause it needs to one up the Brits in Africa. One turn of nothing coming out of South Africa. There is certain a benefit to it no matter how you cut it, losses and all…

Maybe US does retake it rapidly, at least you know exactly where they’re going that is comforting especially as you move deeper into the Soviet Union.

My two cents…

If London actually fell, then that is all true–the Allies are paralyzed.  A US rescue plan would require a KGF fleet and cross, which requires Ichabod’s Atlantic investment from get-go (because you don’t know what the J plan is necessarily).  We just discussed using 102 to shuttle more stuff over there and attack the Germany fleet, but this only works in the channel and London has to die in the process (because you don’t have an LZ if London stands and japan hasn’t attacked you yet).    The rescue with ground units will be more challenging (because you didn’t cross in the face of all the german air ready to Sea Lion and facing west).

All of that is belated thinking;  with a proper turtle of 6+1, bringing all that can gather in London, followed by another round or two of part spend should make UK very costly to take over and Germany may not even try it.    If he surprises you with a rapid build of transports and strategic bombing, then you haven’t played UK very often;  Germany can change its plan at any juncture.  The UK in the Global version has crap money but its enough to prevent disaster.

The rescue plan is more for the situation where J3 J4 and later turns where the US is mostly focused on KJF and so only has a limited amount of stuff off Gibraltar.    Otherwise, the Germans after turn 5 will not be able to attack (or even move on) UK without inviting a counterattack from the substantial US/UK fleet that has gathered to KGF.  At that point any US fighters (there are at least 6!) could have landed, and Sea Lion even with 100% commit should be a bust.

I think the bigger question is when should Sea Lion be aborted?

Should one abort all plans for Sea Lion if, say, Italy is diced hard in the Med and lost the majority of its transports/fleet?

Probably, because one would assume that the main goal of Sea Lion is to stop the Brits in Africa so that Italy can rapid expand. In this case, Germany is better off going after Russia. The argument can be made that one is, at the very least, gaining the British IPCs, but in reality one has gained nothing since one will not even be able to re-build the airforce and, thus, leaving one to struggle on the eastern front and unable to repel the coming American wave.

If the Germans take too long to assemble the units required for a sure thing Sea Lion, it should also be aborted. As mentioned above, by this time, the US, in theory, will be too potent.

What if Germany lost an abnormal amount of planes during T1 or T2?

Sea Lion should most definitely be aborted.

As a UK player, one should also note all of the above because these are all tells as to Germany’s capabilities. If, for example, Germany lost a lot of aircraft in T1, one should conclude that there is a Sea Lion reprieve and can focus on Africa.

In sum, if one is playing as the Axis and is wielding a weak, transport-less/fleet-less Italy, then what would be the point of Sea Lion?

Well you stop UK from building more units and force the US to try to rescue London. Especially if UK did not expected a Sealion and build nothing to prevent it. Many people think that Sealion will not happen and thus only build minimal defenses against it. If Japan does a J1 or J2 DOW at the same time and pushes string against India than US also has to decide what to do. Help to free London as fast as possible and risk a Axis win in the Pacific or split forces.

Early game, I think it should never be attempted only threatened.    You can force UK’s hand for 2-3 turns on his buys, that it is the goal.  Later in the game, if Germany kills Russia, they can turn around and try to kill UK too because they get so much money and all their planes are freed up.

If UK buys 9 men or 6+1, the odds aren’t there.  The Taranto planes that leave can’t cross back, you’ll want 2-3 minimum to survive and stay home (and start with 4).  If you are down to 1-2 fighters, UK needs to buy all men.

If Germany can pull off the modest sub-goals of 1) killing the UK ships near the UK 2) building its 6-7 hit fleet with 1 carrier without dying 3) strat bomb London 4) clamping UK income  then the Sea Lion threat is on.  With Germany making 50+ and UK 28-, Germany can build and overwhelm.  But when those things don’t all go smoothly, the odds are no good.  Also, you are going to have to stage quite a few tanks west, for 2 rounds of landings, which means your Russian spearhead isn’t forming up.  That’s why its better to build the waves of tanks and transports later (G5+) but if UK and USA are any good, they are all over the issue and there are TONS of guys on London.

So, I think Sea Lion should be canceled in the face of any credible defense.  If you have the Italians, or the UK spends its money around the planet, or Germany is raging $$ and bombing, then its a yellow light–not an all clear.

@GeneralHandGrenade:

@PainState:

The “real” question then becomes in regards to Sea Lion is this. IF Japan goes J1 does that eliminate Germany from performing Sea Lion later than G2? The USA has a lot of options at its disposal at the start of the game + their Turn 1 build to shut down Sea Lion dead in its tracks if the USA wants to. If the USA cannot stop the G2 dice fest in London and Germany takes it the USA will coming storming in on USA3 and just retake it.

Seems like a lot of dead German IPC in units for a one turn sacking of London.

This is my whole point of building heavily in the Atlantic on the first 2 turns. Do what you can to make it a foolish move by Germany to do Sealion on G3. For the Allies to win the game the UK is going to need to control Africa, the Middle East, and the Med and they can’t do that if they don’t get a start on it until it’s too late and Italy has become a beast. The US should have plenty of time to build in the Pacific after turn 2. There’s nothing stopping them from moving ships from the Atlantic through the Panama Canal if you decide that you don’t want to use them there after Germany spends their big wad of money on turn 2.

GHG,

You make a good point here…and besides, there’s nothing to stop the US from moving the turn 1 Atlantic builds on turn 2 if Germany doesn’t purchase any boats or transports on G2.

I have come to the conclusion that the US must spend their first turn on countering whatever Germany appears to be planning no matter what it is. There is too much at stake over there and the Germans have too much of a defensive advantage not to try and do something early.

With 52 IPC’s, I think it’s a good idea to buy 4 bombers and send them over along with the starting bomber if Germany bought all land units G1. If Sealion is possible, I would strongly consider moving the California fleet to sz 89 even if Japan blew up the stuff at Pearl J1. It looks cowardly but it’s practical.

Then you go Pacific for several rounds since it’s harder for Japan to defend against a naval approach.

^ I’m in favour of a US DD & CV for the east coast. That makes a huge difference to the survivability of any US fleet in the Atlantic. I also buy 2TTs+inf+ftr.

Regardless of any Axis action, if Germany has to spend IPCs fighting USA, they aren’t spending it fighting USSR.

all this opening turn “gambits”.

Germany builds to look like they could do Sea Lion, what does UK do? 9 or the 6-1 option?

Why is the USA left out of the gambit equation?

Germany goes Sea Lion feint or go and the UK does it build in kind. Then Germany looks over at USA East coast and realizes based on their builds this Sea Lion bid might just be a waste of time and a one turn bit to get their IPC and then move on, Russia does love a G4 DOW.

what happens if Japan goes J1 and brings the USA into the war?

IMO if the Allies play it right it ends any pretense of Sea Lion and stops it dead in its tracks.

USA can stop Sea Lion and its overall effect on the war. Once Sea Lion is dead in its tracks then the USA and UK can focus on taking out Germany on the Western front and the USA can put pressure on Japan.

@PainState:

what happens if Japan goes J1 and brings the USA into the war?

IMO if the Allies play it right it ends any pretense of Sea Lion and stops it dead in its tracks.

I’ve thought about this from the Axis perspective and I still like the idea of a G2/J1 with Sealion threat. If the U.S. responds in the Atlantic even though you went hog wild in the Pacific, then Japan has gotten away with something big.

The prime response would be a couple of existing US fighters, but since you can’t stage them onto Canada or Iceland or SZ 102 until your 2nd turn, and then only at war (except for SZ 102, so J1) the only way for the UK to receive them would be for them to put a CV in SZ 109, which is dangerous.

The worst thing about a SeaLion threat is that UK needs all its fighters on 1 space, because it cannot defend Scotland and London and a fleet until it has several turns of buys.    This means only 3 scramblers, not the 6 scramblers.    And it means you can’t start an early fleet (say 1 CV and 1 DD in SZ 109) because the fighters will have to jump off once London is threatened, which leaves the fleet bare.

So that’s why CV in 102 is so nice, because its the only direct, safe intervention.  But since you don’t have a CV to start, you’d build US 1, head to SZ 102 US 2, and hope for a J3.  In every other case (J1, J2) you could just land on London as soon as you stage up, but that’d be Iceland US2, London US3.  And if they killed London, your only LZ is back on the carriers…