A0 Turn (New turn order for 1942.2 map)

Cool to read about the different style with turn A0.  Also cool to see that the vets still make errors… not just me!  Definitely want to read more if you keep playtesting.  Originally I was against the +42 bid + saved Allied TUV + destroyed Axis TUV as way overkill for balance (I thought non-com only might be enough), but an Axis bid would keep it interesting.

I would like to try my proposed 4 or 5 IPC value India, but I’m not sure how to modify the game like that.  I’m also more green than you guys (by several hundred games, apparently) so I’m not sure how well my playtesting against the AI would be as validation.

@Russiangoat:

Cool to read about the different style with turn A0.  Also cool to see that the vets still make errors… not just me!  Definitely want to read more if you keep playtesting.  Originally I was against the +42 bid + saved Allied TUV + destroyed Axis TUV as way overkill for balance (I thought non-com only might be enough), but an Axis bid would keep it interesting.

I would like to try my proposed 4 or 5 IPC value India, but I’m not sure how to modify the game like that.  I’m also more green than you guys (by several hundred games, apparently) so I’m not sure how well my playtesting against the AI would be as validation.

Do you believe a 5 IPCs India can be able to repulse IJN with 5 units produced each turn?

@Argothair:

If you can get into the “package” of TripleA, there will be a text file for each map, and you can just edit the production value of India in that text file for Solo playtesting. If you want to playtesting online, you need your opponent’s to have the same map, which is beyond my ken. Someone more active on TripleA might know. On a real board, of course, you just declare that India is worth 5 ipcs, and it is so! You can use a sticker or post it note if you need a reminder.

I think a 5 IPC India could protect itself from Japan, but at what cost? 15+ IPCs per turn to India leaves Britain without the funds to build a serious Atlantic fleet. You might build one destroyer and fill one transport in the Atlantic each turn, or you might not even manage that, if you want any British air support for India or Russia. It becomes very easy for Germany to ward off your tiny fleet with even one German fighter purchase per turn, so Germany will probably get huge, and eventually India gets attacked from both sides, by Germany and Japan.

**If the UK abandons a 5 IPC India factory, then Japan can singlehandedly out produce the Caucasus, without the need to build any new factories of its own.

I agree that Britain needs more starting production slots, but I’d rather accomplish that with extra starting factories in South Africa, Australia, and/or Canada.**

If UK doesn’t have enough money to feed UK up to 5 units, how can UK can feed other IC?
Do you believe that building slowly units in Eastern Canada will help UK in India?
I don’t see how Australia or South Africa ICs can help…

I think the issue with India is that it’s just more production than the British economy can really handle, even at just 3. Although if it was 5, there is good chance they could hold it long enough to have an impact. The question then becomes, what do you do with it? 5 tanks a turn? Hold it for like 4 turns and then bounce, sending 20 tanks to the Eastern front? Stick it out with 5 artillery and a fighter in UK? It’d pretty much be the only game in town, Japan would have to go south I’d think, or give up on the center. I don’t know it might work actually. But the game would still be pretty one dimensional for UK. It’d be an even bigger magnet at 5 than it is at 3.

I wish Australia was a single territory worth 3, and a starting factory on it. I had it that way in Pact of Steel, and it seemed to work pretty well. Japan had a tougher decision to make.

I had an idea that every factory gets +2 production over the printed value on the map. This would give UK 5 at India, but also gives everyone else the same advantage. Japan could spam factories on the mainland, but then again UK/US could do a fair amount of spamming themselves.

I think such a rule would be pretty interesting, since you could a factory anywhere really and be guaranteed at least 2 slots (even on an empty tile.) Turns the factory into more of an outpost unit.Then the board becomes more about building as many outposts as you can in the chosen theater, but balanced against the then fill those outposts with combat units.

I would make all factories auto-destroyed upon capture. As a way to cull the spam. But it would make every theater more interesting for both sides. Otherwise valueless islands might actually be worthwhile with an outpost factory  (easier to defend, less to lose if they fall.) Any theater could be activated. You imagine Germany being able to put 3 production in North Africa. Or 5 on the Eastern Front. Japan able to put 3 production in Bury with 5 and Manchuria. Could get pretty intense. Then again US/UK could put them pretty much anywhere. And Russia would also benefit from extra production on the front lines, and less fear of captured Soviet factories being immediately used against them.

I love the factory unit myself, I think it’s the most interesting unit in the roster. One of things I don’t really dig in G40, is that there are so many restrictions on where it can go. The minor could have been such an outpost unit in that game, but the way the rules are you can’t put them in most of the locations that might make the unit interesting. This rule for 1942 gives you a similar dynamic, but with no restrictions on placement, and no need for a multi-tiered production profile. The unit is still limited by the values on the map, just has a bottom floor at 2 production, that makes it useful pretty much anywhere. It would be fun for A0 escapades in China or Alaska or Hawaii hehe.

Basically like v3 tech, and then auto-tech everyone with the advanced factories? Just remove the restriction that says “only on territories +3 or greater”?

It’s that restriction that prevents the unit from becoming an all-purpose outpost that could function on any tile, and limits its full gameplay potential. If you’re not wedded to the idea that IC’s have to actually be Industrial Complexes, this sort of rule turns them into a more abstract “front-line deployment” unit.

ps. Here is a game save with the American zero turn for v5, where the AI has a 10 percent income bonus. I think the AI handles itself a bit better with the boost.
You can edit a bid if desired. You can adjust the bonus to whatever you like, in the game options.

The game simulates A0 by skipping the first round to US1. Its starts on Japan’s non com (to give the US its proper income boost) if playing vs AI Allies. Basically you just click done with Japan, and it goes straight into the A0 (full turn). You could go higher on the income boost too, if this isn’t challenging enough, but I definitely think the machine does better with the income boost than with an AI bid. The logic for the AI bid is pretty busted, whereas the income bonus gives the AI something consistent to work with over time, to make up it’s for strategic deficiencies in other areas like with fleet mangement haha.

Just finished messing around vs AI Allies with no bid. They went 8 rounds before Moscow collapse, mostly focusing on the Atlantic. Not spectacular, but still a lot better than OOB hehe.

Pps. The AI doesn’t really know how to leverage their advantage with the western Allies, it’s very aggressive and somewhat shortsighted on the ground, decided less so on the water. I think for AI Allies to be challenging it is advisable to give the Russians more to work with. You can edit more units for the Soviets on the J1 non com if desired. Also it should be noted that the gamesave below allows you to play vs AI Allies. If you want to play as Allies vs AI Axis,  you can just start a save from US1.

1942 sec ed USA starts AI income 10 percent.tsvg
1942 sec ed USA starts AI income 10 percent J8.tsvg

Just for kicks I went at the machine again. There’s not a whole lot the AI can show you, because skynet still doesn’t play as a human would, but it can be amusing to see how Redrum’s hard AI deals with the A0.

This time I gave the AI Allies a 20 percent income bonus in the game menu, and edited a bomber to Russia.

The AI Allies performed much better, with UK bombing the hell out of G for the duration, and the US mounting a pretty effective KGF. All the Al Allies were more aggressive, but the Soviets in particular, which is always fun.  They smoked a stack of 10 Japanese fighters in a final glorious offensive, before the center unraveled. I went a little fighter crazy with Axis, instead of the usual Axis stratB type game.

Here in the 14th round, the Allies are way way ahead in naval TUV and the American AI has just landed a major expeditionary force in Italy. Japan just barely managed to snake Moscow, to try and open things up for the bad guys hehe. But yeah, a lot more entertaining vs AI Allies at 20 percent, and the Russian Bomber.
:-D

ps. took another 4 rounds for Japan to stabilize Germany, but Allies are still pretty thick in Europe. The British just bought themselves a factory in France haha. Will probably call it a night here, since the Axis have nearly turned the production spread despite being totally outclassed on the water. Just a matter of building up the Eurasian air defenses to bully the AI fleets around, but it was still pretty fun facing down a KGF with the AI at 20% income boost.

1942 sec ed USA starts Rus StB AI income 20 percent G14.tsvg
1942 sec ed USA starts Rus StB AI income 20 percent G18.tsvg

Also here is a gamesave for the A0 turn, US1 start… I have it posted elsewhere, but might as well stick one here too.
:-D

One more for the long night… This time I gave the AI Axis the 20% bonus and played as Allies under A0 (restricted opening). A slow burn, dual-theater, Japan stall type game. Took 17 rounds to get a comfortable line on Tokyo, but it was pretty safe play throughout along the center wedge. AI Germany made some curious decisions for the opener, that I hadn’t really seen before from the AI, they basically gave the Royal navy a pass, which was almost certainly their undoing. I grabbed the ball and ran with it, taking the oppertunity to push in both directions. I find that on the Pacific side AI Japan is pretty easy to manage if you just purchase enough carriers and bombers to put the zap on the IJN right away. Not quite as intense as I expected for an Axis +20% income game, even with the boost the Axis couldn’t crack the center. I made firebombing a top priority, revenge against the machine for the last game hehe. Basically I have to push the limits pretty hard with the bonuses to see a credible threat from the AI, but its still pretty fun for a low stress stomp. Its come a fairly long way under Redrum’s mad science, compared to the older AIs which were pretty useless. This one can sometimes make a breakout if you load it up with enough cash haha

1942 sec ed USA starts AI Axis 20 percent R17.tsvg
1942 sec ed USA starts.tsvg

I was bumming that I had to miss a local area game of 42.2 today on account of work. So I called my buddy out of retirement to play A0 tomorrow.

The plan was to go otherwise OOB, but he’s probably rusty, so still debating whether to throw a red bomber his way haha.

Will you try StB C5?
If the case, will you allow TcBs to be buy?
Playing USA R0 restricted?

@Argothair:

I think a 5 IPC India could protect itself from Japan, but at what cost? 15+ IPCs per turn to India leaves Britain without the funds to build a serious Atlantic fleet. You might build one destroyer and fill one transport in the Atlantic each turn, or you might not even manage that, if you want any British air support for India or Russia. It becomes very easy for Germany to ward off your tiny fleet with even one German fighter purchase per turn, so Germany will probably get huge, and eventually India gets attacked from both sides, by Germany and Japan.

If the UK abandons a 5 IPC India factory, then Japan can singlehandedly out produce the Caucasus, without the need to build any new factories of its own.

I agree that Britain needs more starting production slots, but I’d rather accomplish that with extra starting factories in South Africa, Australia, and/or Canada.

@Black_Elk:

I think the issue with India is that it’s just more production than the British economy can really handle, even at just 3. Although if it was 5, there is good chance they could hold it long enough to have an impact. The question then becomes, what do you do with it? 5 tanks a turn? Hold it for like 4 turns and then bounce, sending 20 tanks to the Eastern front? Stick it out with 5 artillery and a fighter in UK? It’d pretty much be the only game in town, Japan would have to go south I’d think, or give up on the center. I don’t know it might work actually. But the game would still be pretty one dimensional for UK. It’d be an even bigger magnet at 5 than it is at 3.

Good comments. � I did manage to figure out how to edit the 5 IPC India, and played one game as Allies and one as Axis against Hard AI (no bonuses, but did also use the Red bomber bid game 1 and AI used the 12 IPCs for Russian ground). �

In the first game AI Japan built a factory in Manchuria, but didn’t build up their fleet much (and they never do Pearl) so I hit them with the starting US fleet from Hawaii and the east coast (at 45% odds) and wiped out their fleet. They turtled and were overrun in Asia so it was an easy Allied victory. I was dropping 5 ground in the UK and 1 fighter in London for Moscow support, but Germany never made a real play for Moscow, just played cat and mouse with Russia.

Second game I was Axis, and UK dropped 5 inf in India first turn, which was daunting for Japan. � However, the US transport and destroyer survived G1, so US went Atlantic fleet heavy and UK followed suit, and left India to rot. � Germany was mostly playing defence for the rest of the game, and once Japan had India the Orange monster was in full swing. � Moscow fell after Germany’s main stack peeled all the ground and Japanese tanks rolled in, which is fairly standard when you ignore Japan completely. �  �

The 5 IPC India definitely means the UK has to drop some more IPCs away from Europe, but I feel like this makes a KJF strategy a lot more plausible, since Japan can’t compete on the ground with UK and on the water with US. � Kick Japan off of Asia and then pivot the ground troops to Moscow. �

In a KGF the UK has to balance between the Atlantic and the Pacific, but Japan has to focus resources more on taking India (if dropping even 5 inf per turn) it delays the center crush, and keeps Japan from being the Orange Monster early on. And since they get 2 bonus IPCs per turn and to starting income, some of the costs of stacking extra infantry are mitigated.  � If Japan is distracted, the extra Indian units can pivot towards Africa or Moscow, and provide relief in those areas. �

It is hard for me to gauge how realistic this is from just playing the AI, but those are my thoughts. � A good human opponent may make way more hay with Germany with some of the pressure off in the Atlantic.

I’m interested to hear how your face to face A0 games goes. � What bid are you thinking for the Axis?

I played another game with India at 5, but I played against myself instead of the AI (first time doing that!).

Russia got absolutely diced in the heavy Ukraine strafe, and so West Russia was abandoned R2 and with no fighter support (Iceland gone G1, no other good routes) Germany rolled over them on turn G5.

Once the fighter route was gone I went heavy tanks in India, hoping to swing out against the Japanese and provide defence for Moscow.  I did have 8 UK tanks about to rush in to Moscow for defence (on UK6), but that would have exposed India on J6 AND Japanese tanks were closing in on Moscow as well, so it would have been a 1 or 2 turn delay at most.  Japan had the luxury of building a factory in Manchuria for north route tanks and just stacking Yunnan with art and inf (with their fleet in the adjacent SZ) and deadzone Burma, so the UK troop buildup in India couldn’t really pivot out of India as much as I thought.  Any foray out of India, and the 5 IPC factory would be gone, so the two armies stayed in the gravitational pull of one another.

I’ve never really done a KJF, but I think that might work a lot better with 5 IPC India.  I might read some KJF strategies and try it out.  So far, 5 IPC India is a failure, haha.