Many threads on Cruiser and Battleship…
This is an interesting analysis only Topic on BB compared to CA from Taamvan which was buried in G40 Forum.
Hope it will get a second life and attracts more comments…
Why Battleships are good and Cruisers are even more inferior than ever
August 10, 2016, 10:31:33 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=38389.msg1570645#msg1570645
This Young Grasshopper thread is about increasing combat values of CA and BB on first round if any enemy’s plane is present.
Prepared Strike
February 02, 2017, 11:44:30 am to still active
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=39287.msg1627182#msg1627182
YG thread to increase +1 A/D/bombardment for both CA and BB.
Cruiser and Battleship upgrades performed by naval bases
May 17, 2016, 10:26:06 am to Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 06:57:01 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37947.msg1540592#msg1540592
YG thread exploring “1” anti-air for CA, BB and Carrier
AA capabilities for big ships
May 21, 2016, 10:39:23 am to reply #23 on: September 22, 2016, 12:36:28 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37975.msg1542299#msg1542299
Cruiser Rework
January 22, 2016, 09:39:23 pm to Reply #27 on: August 21, 2016, 11:28:06
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37294.msg1497122#msg1497122
A poll thread about little twist to fix Cruiser: AAA like add on, Inf Transport capacity, M3-4, +NCM 1 move, etc.
Cruiser add on
December 05, 2015, 04:07:09 pm to Reply #74 on: February 08, 2016, 03:20:30 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36980.msg1477863#msg1477863
drummerinheat want to give Cruiser M3 and many talks about increasing her maneuverability.
Cruiser Idea
September 14, 2015, 07:00:35 pm to Reply #57 on: October 18, 2015, 08:49:28 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36596.msg1451972#msg1451972
A certain kind of Blitz capacity for one’s own can-opener Cruiser was develop in this thread from Black Elk:
Blitz units, Can Openers, and Turn Order
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34869.msg1350988#msg1350988
This allows Cruisers to attack DDs blockers and once the SZ is conquered, let other Naval units attack another SZ behind the first line blocker or simply NCM into an unoccupied SZ further away.
Eliminating Cruisers from Global 1940- Advice needed! (updated with setup chart)
March 02, 2015, 05:18:12 pm to Reply #7 March 03, 2015
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35442.msg1381813#msg1381813
YG is making 1942.2 BB same as G40.2
1942.2 Damaged Battleships
March 29, 2015, 12:41:40 pm to Reply #3 on: March 30, 2015, 06:30:26 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35629.msg1392876#msg1392876
Young Grasshopper is exploring combined arms with BB.
Many others were suggested too, like Carrier-BB-CA to give a full AAA like defense.
Cruisers - Combined Arms
December 15, 2014, 10:35:25 am to Reply #105 on: December 22, 2014, 05:49:53 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1357707#msg1357707V
House rule for Cruisers: Global 1940
February 04, 2013, 07:57:52 am to Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 10:29:32 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=29818.msg1071797#msg1071797
How to make battleships a more attractive purchase
May 16, 2014, 10:46:04 pm to Reply #46 on: December 10, 2014, 01:24:30 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33557.msg1281581#msg1281581
Balancing Cruiser (CL) and Battleship (BB) units with other A&A units
October 10, 2013, 03:55:50 pm to Reply #74 on: February 10, 2015, 07:02:48 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32165.msg1202619#msg1202619
Cont From the AAA Thread, but about warships not AA Guns
May 15, 2013, 08:39:31 am to Reply #147 on: June 07, 2013, 10:16:14 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31177.msg1137233#msg1137233
An exception because it talks about shore bombardment and can increase unbalanced vs Cruiser:
[1942.2 & G40] Destroyers able to get a Shore Bombardment?
March 05, 2013, 10:05:16 pm to Reply #41 on: March 17, 2014, 05:59:43 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30249.msg1091515#msg1091515
Uncrustable’s thread talking Cruiser is overpriced, has numbers and balance issues.
Cruisers, whats the point?
February 09, 2012, 12:16:54 pm to Reply #135 on: March 30, 2012, 10:49:50 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26388.msg918392#msg918392
Cruisers?
January 02, 2010, 01:09:31 am to Reply #73 on: January 25, 2010, 08:14:49 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=16249.msg542071#msg542071
An interesting post on Cruiser price and cost calculation from Larry Harris buried in Anniversary threads.
@Krieghund:
Larry’s response (posted on his site):
Hello Telamon. Thanks for your most kind posting. “Remained true to the original”!
Cruiser. Hey I’m not a great player but not all that bad either. In fact there were times when I was the best player in the world for each of my games. It is when that world population exceeded 3 people that I noticed a decline in my standings.
Cruiser. They have their purpose, heck at 12 IPCs they can come in handy in mid game when I’m usually fighting for my life. And with battleships costing 20 I usually can’t afford that kind of money.
Buying a cruiser at 12 gives me 8 more IPCs to play with when compared to a BB purchase. For 19 IPCs I can buy something that the navy is really all about: a transport. I can’t really argue with a bunch of “good player” however. If they say cruisers are a good purchase at 11 and I say they are “an ok purchase” at 12$ ok I hear ya. I don’t always agree with this assumption, however. I’d like to give you some insights on how I see it. I look at the over all cost in IPCs for each unit’s ability to score a hit on the enemy.
A sub costing 6 and having a combined attack and defense total of 3 (2 on attack plus 1 on defense) cost me 2 IPCs for each opportunity to hit my opponent. That’s funny, that’s the same price-per-opportunity to kill something as a destroyer has. They cost 8 and have a combat value of 4. (8/by 4 =2).
Cruisers at 12 and divided by 6 (3/3) is also 2.
A battleships with its price tag of 20 has a cost per potential hit at 2.5. Of course a battleship has two lives so its cost really is 1.25 IPCs per hit opportunity. Good deal! But it cost so damned many IPCs. In defense of the lover priced cruiser, I’d like to point out that it has the same cost/kill ability as a destroyer or a sub. So why pick on the cruiser.
Yeah, I know DDs have a that special anti-sub thing and subs have their own special points of (I want to say: confusion) value. But a cruiser has a 50% chance of scoring a hit during a bombardment (its special ability). In any case, I assigned a value of 12 to the cruiser perhaps it should have been an 11. I could not always use this simple formula when assigning values to these various units.
I also had to take into consideration my perception of what was fun but yet made the most sense. Kind of subjective don’t you think. Look at the bomber or the carrier for example. They have a cost of 2.4 and 2.33 per kill ability. Is that long range of a bomber worth that extra .4 and is the carrier worth that extra .33 because it can carry aircraft. I guess so, I mean I think so. Who knows for sure? You got to admit, however, that all the units are certainly in the ball park when it comes to cost.
@HolKann:
Hmm, nice reasoning. BUT dear Larry Harris, you’re forgetting the most important value of a unit! In your view, a unit’s price is determined by “kill ability” and “special ability”. These are indeed 2 major factors, but you’re forgetting the most important one: “hit taking ability”. Let’s calculate that for each naval unit shall we? sub: 1 hit for 6 IPC’s = ~0.15 DD’s: 1/8= ~0.13 Cru: 1/12= ~0.8 BB: 2/20= ~0.1 (excluding the autorepair after each battle) Loaded carrier: 3/34= ~0.9. Well now, guess who’s coming out at the bottom, also having (imho) the worst “special ability” of all. It’s big plus should be the “kill ability”, so 11 for a Cru would still make it not so good a deal. Imho, 10 would be very defendable, subs would still be bought, DD’s would still be bought to counter subs and for cheap hits, and the cru would simply be good value for the money; yer basic sea unit taking over the role of core fleet unit, from the DD who isn’t made for this role in the first place! Sorry mr. Harris, but the logic you’re using to refute cheaper cruisers is wrong/incomplete, please consider to rethink this…
So summarized: 1 inf extra in Egy, 2 in Yun, and a Cru of 11 (or 10?!). Please mr. Harris, make this the official LHTR for AA50, so I can convince my friends to play with these more balanced rules. Otherwise those shiny new Cruisers in AA 1942 will stay in the box too much :|
@Telamon:
You’re spot on Holkann - hit taking ability is as important as hit giving ability. That’s why 5 cruisers (attack points 15, cost 60) will consistently lose to 3 battleships (attack points 12, cost 60). Extra hits. It’s what makes destroyers the best value for buffing a fleet. I agree that 10 is a realistic option for cruisers - it would make them a fraction weaker than destroyers, but a definite step ahead of battleships. At 11, they are a fraction weaker than battleships. I don’t mind where they are placed 10-11, but at 12 IPC they are pricing themselves out of the market. Bombarding doesn’t make up for a weak, expensive unit.
@oztea:
Hold on a second….why are ships always getting AA guns?
The vulnerability of the big ships was one of the top 5 lessons of WWII!
Battle of Taranto, Pearl Harbor, Guadalcanal, Midway, etc.
No AA guns on boats, it doesn’t solve anything. It just makes the UK fleet stronger if germany can only attack it by air late game.
Cruisers are fine, a 3/3 for 10 is a fighter. A 3/3 for 5 Is a tank A 3/3 for 12 is a Cruiser.
Small discrepancy, but its all relative. In the water a 3/3 for 12 is fine, considering the 2/2 is 8 (66% of cost) and the 2/2 on land is 80% of the cost of its 3/3 counterpart. Boats cost a lot of money folks, remember if you drop it low enough Russia might buy one and that’s pretty unhistorical. 12 makes it an investment, not a bargain.