Italy switching sides

:? :? :? :?

@SS:

How much are thees “loot” bonuses ?

Base value of factory

@Flashman:

I have a problem with any “liberated” power resuming normal play.

Under occupation, a country would be stripped of manufacturing facilities or have them converted for enemy use. On evacuation, the enemy would put factories beyond use or asset strip them altogether.

To take the historical example of France: when liberated in 1940 the French war industry never got going again; all new French divisions were given American and British equipment down to uniforms and kit - it was just not practical to restore the French native industries.

Soviet production was only so strong because the bulk of it was evacuated to Siberia; very little military production would have taken place in the liberated areas of Russia before the end of the war.

I would be surprised to learn of any significant war industry of co-belligerent Italy after 1943. Infantry units, yes, but heavy machinery? Tanks? Ships? Aircraft? Its a little different in that Southern Italy is not considered to have been enemy occupied as such, but in the carnage of being fought over the infrastructure of a modern economy is likely to collapse or be put out of use by one side.

I prefer to rule that a liberated county can only produce infantry units. This follows on from my rule that captured factories are always removed; the capturer gets a “loot” cash bonus, but thereafter the factory site can only be used to produce native infantry. (No new factories, natch).

Allied Italy was given British equipment only because the fear of the Axis Italy creating confusion on the battlefield. I know Allied Italy was able to keep tanks but I cannot find pictures if they stuck with Italian tanks or were given other allied tanks. As far as the Allied Airforce, they operated but not in Italy. As for their navy, I know they fought in the Italian theater of war but I do not know if Axis Italy had any navy left for use.

No, I dont get this. Lets say my friend Skippy Cavanaugh play Italy, and he really love the Axis, but then Tommy, who play UK, by some reason capture Sicily, and now Skippy must play for the other team ? Is that what you are telling me ? Or, do you say that Skippy must leave the room and control of Italy is handed over to either Tommy, who control UK, or to a brand new player like my cousin Harry who happens to be in our basement but have not taken part of the game before and are willing to fight for the Axis cause ? Because that can be fun if you play in a club. But if Tommy play both UK and Italy like he would by the OOB current rules, but with the only difference he can now keep the major factory and even use the Italian pieces too, then this is IMHO just a gamey trick to end the game faster. So thumps down on that, man

The way I would do it is the same situation Vichy France was. Vichy France is a Germany puppet so it is played by Germany but as its own nation. Allied Italy was put under control of UK so UK play Allied Italy as its own nation.

Only problem with that is the missing link to the real war. When Benito was jailed and Badaglio become the new pro allied leader of Italy, more than 1. 200 000 Italian soldiers that happened to be in Axis controlled territory become prisoners, and 300 000 of them was even executed by the Germans. In addition to that US and UK killed 350 000 civilian Italians and bombed all industry. Next turn Benito was restored by the Germans in what was known as the Salo government, and now Benito could move the xmas San Marco division around on the map. Badoglio on the other hand had nothing to move around. The strongest Italian units after 1944 were communist partisans controlled by Kreml. I do respect your effort to model Vichy France and Badoglio Italy, but IMHO the current OOB rules model this in a smooth and brilliant way. The player that capture and occupy Paris and Rome will get the income and own the land. No need for house rules, but as I always keep saying, its your basement and you are the king in your own basement

and no, I dont think Vichy France was a puppet, in that case Hitler could have sent the vichy army to fight in Russia. To me it look like Vichy France become a strict neutral. Vichy units could not move around on the map, they were stuck in one spot, and everybody who wanted to move across a vichy territory had to fight their way into it. To me that looks like a true neutral, not a puppet. just saying

Vichy France was a complete puppet state. The Vichy government was completely hand picked by the Axis powers and their only condition for operations as a neutral nation required them to surrender northern France along with France’s northern fleets and the fact they were allowed to only move their military that protects their colonies. Just because your a puppet, doesn’t mean they’re going to fight someone else. The reason why Hitler refused to allow Vichy France to join the Axis was because Hitler was told he was going to lose a million men taking Paris when he only lost 40,000. So he had no respect in France’s ability to rage war and another huge benefits for having Vichy France was it allowed the Axis in Euro to defend critical area’s easier and bottle necking the Allies in the Med. That’s why Italy and Germany were shocked when operation Torched happened because they didn’t think the Brits and Americans were going to send soldiers to fight former allies in the name of stopping the Axis powers. He thought they had too much respect for them. Southern France in Vichy hands closed the possibility of landing forces in Southern France in his eyes. We all know that was a lie because the original invasion of Europe was going to be Southern France.

Another thing about Italy in a civil war is the fact that both sides had a sizable military after the 43 surrender of Italy. Allied Italy put together a total of 80,000 soldiers for their army and that number does not count what the air force and navy had in total while Axis Italy put together a small number of forces around 52,000 men. Those numbers are enough to have a present in this game. It’s not like I am arguing to have the Viet Minh in French Indo China that was at best 2,000 irregulars during WWII that wouldn’t even mark a single infantry piece in AnA.

My solution for Italy in this game is about as close as you can history and this board games rules into one.

Allied Italy takes control of former Italian colonies, takes control of all Italian forces outside of German Territory, any naval and air forces outside of Germany take control by Allied Italy, she must surrender all Battleships and Aircraft Carriers and is played by UK.

Axis Italy remains in the game in the north. I have debated wither or not to actually enforce true history and make it Axis Italy surrenders ALL its forces to Germany outside Allied Italy rules and start fresh but that is debatable.

How motivated to fight for either side were Italians after 1943? I’d guess they all just wanted the war to end. They’d seen the back of Mussolini, but did they want to die for the King?

My preference is for a general rule that all liberated former factory sites can be used to build infantry only (captured factories removed remember). This works fine for France. Some places could be used by either side (Romania, Finland?)

What happens if northern Italy has a mix of German and Italian units; do the Germans “disarm” the Italians?

If Italy becomes Allied does it get bonus infantry to represent returning POWs (I use something similar in 1914 after Russian revolution).

What about Italians on leave in Tokyo?

@Flashman:

How motivated to fight for either side were Italians after 1943? I’d guess they all just wanted the war to end. They’d seen the back of Mussolini, but did they want to die for the King?

My preference is for a general rule that all liberated former factory sites can be used to build infantry only (captured factories removed remember). This works fine for France. Some places could be used by either side (Romania, Finland?)

What happens if northern Italy has a mix of German and Italian units; do the Germans “disarm” the Italians?

If Italy becomes Allied does it get bonus infantry to represent returning POWs (I use something similar in 1914 after Russian revolution).

What about Italians on leave in Tokyo?

I always work house rules around historical marks for game play so in order to answer your questions, it works like this:

1: Both sides had military forces loyal to their commanders, Axis Italy did not surrendered until 1945 when it fell right before USSR entered Berlin, while the bulk of it was German defenders, they used Italian forces more of a military auxiliary but they did fight. Allied Italian forces as far as I know, never fought independent from the other allies, I don’t think US and UK trusted them so as far as I know, they were incorporated into US and UK units but they did fight.

2: You bring up a good point about Italian conquered neutral countries so for the sake of my status quo, I say it would join the allies.

3: I never worked any kind of POW rules into the game because I am not sure how to work it but I usually have allied Italy start as a baby fresh power.

4: The only known case of this was Japan did ask any Italian citizen who their loyalty lies and those who said the king, went to jail. While it is very unlike Italy would have any forces in Japanese territory, for the sake of balance, I would treat it no different than if it was in German territory so I’d say it remains Axis.