Hi Gungrinner
What a bummer. At least the Germans won’t be able to buy anything next turn either :)
Welcome to the site :)
The Afrika Korps
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I did used the described builds and other battle actions as described in the strategy besides Neutral Crush. German fleet builds provided a defensive UK and quick capture of Egypt by Italy that remained at 35+ IPC throughout the game and control of the Med + Fort Europa.
When you say Quickly, do you mean before I4?
If it was done befre I4, I wonder about the UK player. In my experience, Italy cant capture egypt quickly. At least not after the taronto raid. The raid should be a lot more successful since you don’t fly the german ftrs to protect it.
The UK player did not do Taranto. Reason could be 2 Submarines in SZ106, 1 Battleship in SZ111, 1 German Tactical in Rome and 1 Aircraft Carrier, Transport and Submarine buy G1. Also fighter in Tobruk prevented attack in UK1. Instead of Taranto UK preferred to kill the 2 Submarines and Battleship. Allied did discussed about Taranto, Tobruk and Ethiopia but preferred to reinforce Egypt + Iran and create Red Sea fleet with German actions in mind.
I do not like the odds of a full Taranto so will never scramble in that situation while I also do not like to not send those 2 extra fighters to sea battles against the Royal Navy G1.
Italy could take Egypt in I2 while Germany reinforced it in G4 to collect the NO with a single Transport with 1 Infantry and 1 Artillery. According to the plan I captured Gibraltar and Morocco with the full Carrier (Fighter and Tactical) Cruiser and 2 Transport in G2. In UK2 he send 3 Fighters, Cruiser and Destroyer against that fleet but I managed to kill his forces with only the two Transports surviving.
While I sent a single transport back that other Transport actually provided countless IPC for Germany and Italy by sending troops to Egypt in G4. Then liberate Iraq (Allies had prevented this at all costs) in G5 with 1 Artillery. Those 3 Infantry and 1 Artillery where able to take Persia + NW Persia + Caucasus while sending another Infantry back to Egypt when it got taken by the UK for a single turn in UK6 (recaptured by Italy I6) so never losing the NO.
1 Transport! 23 IPC extra per turn for Germany.
I still think that if you focus with your buys and moves on the United Kingdom in first two German builds you are able to get similiar results.
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There is no way for Italy to capture Egpyt on I2 (without lucky dice rolls) if UK retreats the fleet to the Red Sea, brings over a couple of fighters from India, has a transport in Persia, and carries the Malta inf + AA to Egpyt.
On round 2:
3 fighters, 1 Tac, 9 inf, 2 art, 1 mech, 1 tankGermany can do an expensive air raid of Egpyt on G2 trying to remove some critical units. However that makes the game very difficult for the duration of the game.
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I like the 92 sea zone fleet merge in many circumstances (state of British and German air and navies after G1). It keeps some pressure on Italy while posing an immediate threat to Germany (immediate covered landings in Belgium and Normandy) and going long ways to discourage sea lion. With this approach, the UK focuses on Navy + air as opposed to solely building infantry. The airbase in Gibraltar is a great force multiplier throughout the game.
I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.
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I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.
The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.
Marsh
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@Marshmallow:
I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.
The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.
Marsh
Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.
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@Marshmallow:
I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.
The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.
Marsh
Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.
If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.
Marsh
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I agree, Marsh. Blockers are wonderful things when you need time, and retreating into the Red Sea only invites invasion of Trans Jordan, which means valuable units and time are spent trying to retake it so that your navy can get right back where it started. Whoever controls the Mediterranean has a much easier time controlling Africa.
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@Marshmallow:
@Marshmallow:
I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.
The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.
Marsh
Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.
If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.
Marsh
Whats the big deal with italy taking trans jordan UK1. Let them.
You got 4 fighters + 2 tacticals available if you took India air to afrika. He got 2 destroyer + 2 cruisers + 1 BB in defence so you sink his entire fleet and take trans jordan back.If he only moves 1 transport there you sink it and destroy the land units also. Italy losing all of its med assets while UK retrains its fleet and moves in with a powerfull fleet the round after isnt bad at all it just ensures that the med is then UK only and italy isnt going anywhere. You can even start sending the air back to india to defend against japan.
You would attack with 4 fighters and 2 tacticals against 2 destroyer, 2 cruisers and 1 BB? That’s dicey, you have 28% chance of losing all that air.
If this battle fails while Germany has a Sea Lion opener, pretty sure that both Egypt and India fall easily (provided that you protect London)
Bottom line is that you can’t reinforce that red sea fleet effectively unless if you build that IC in Egypt and pour considerable resources in there (I say considerable because 98 is in range of all Axis air forces and the Italian fleet) . For as long as sea lion is a threat (and while the Italian fleet is alive), it’s impossible or hazardous to build that IC and the significant fleet build up that must go with it.
What do you do if Italy takes Trans Jordan, lands in force in Alexandria and Germany lands its air in Alexandria to protect the landing? You may be able to reinforce Egypt with the planes (so you have to leave the Italian fleet alone), but again, the fleet is locked out and has to sail away to get out of range of the German air force.
US units can reinforce the 92 fleet as soon as they enter the war, that allows the UK to produce land units in Africa and the Middle East, while landing some troops in Europe. Canada can reinforce a 91 fleet in only 1 turn, with an existing IC, if needed.
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@Marshmallow:
@Marshmallow:
I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.
The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.
Marsh
Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.
If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.
Marsh
If you deploy blockers on UK 1, you are guaranteed to get back in, but is this any help at all?
You lose the blockers, which weaken your fleet. Are you sure to be able to get back in on UK2? The Italian fleet and air force is still there which I think overpower your fleet. If you are counting on a UK1 Egypt build, then that opens up sea lion or a sea lion threat that will prevent you from using that IC to build the needed additions to that fleet.
It might be good to study the UK 1 behavior of highly ranked league players to see what they do in the Med.
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Sink one of the Italian destroyers + transport on UK1 and he will be down to 1 destroyer, 2 cruisers, and 1 battleship. That can be easily wiped out on UK2 if you brought over your Indian planes. On average you would lose 3 UK planes and Italy has no chance to prevent the British from reclaiming the Med in the early game. Egypt should not fall in the early game unless the Allies goof, there is horrible dice rolling, or the Germans spend considerably to support the efforts.
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@Arthur:
Sink one of the Italian destroyers + transport on UK1 and he will be down to 1 destroyer, 2 cruisers, and 1 battleship. That can be easily wiped out on UK2 if you brought over your Indian planes. On average you would lose 3 UK planes and Italy has no chance to prevent the British from reclaiming the Med in the early game. Egypt should not fall in the early game unless the Allies goof, there is horrible dice rolling, or the Germans spend considerably to support the efforts.
How do you wipe it out if your fleet is lock outside of the Med into the red sea?
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Omega: Usually a retreat to the Red Sea is accompanied by bringing over planes from India to help out. If you can also get a bomber to Gibraltar, you have sufficient force to hit a Italy navy parked next to Egypt. Careful ship blocking can be used to prevent Germany or Italy from capturing Gibraltar. The moves have to be well executed, but usually they work marvelously.
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If I don’t do Taronto, then my philosophy would be to give Italy enough rope to hang itself. If the Italian navy leaves the comforts of their home port (air base) in the first turn UK can generally hit it with the RAF and sink it (making Egypt safe).
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@Arthur:
Omega: Usually a retreat to the Red Sea is accompanied by bringing over planes from India to help out. If you can also get a bomber to Gibraltar, you have sufficient force to hit a Italy navy parked next to Egypt. Careful ship blocking can be used to prevent Germany or Italy from capturing Gibraltar. The moves have to be well executed, but usually they work marvelously.
If you add the bomber it does reduce the odds of a air strike disaster on the Italian fleet (only 6% odds of seeing the fleet surviving). It’s still a battle in which you can lose a number of precious planes.
You don’t worry about removing offensive potential from India? Without air, India has a lot less offensive and defensive flexibility.
A retreat to the Red sea can work, but what are the strategic advantages that a 92 merge does not accomplish?
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@WILD:
If I don’t do Taronto,
I think that is rather like coming up with a strategy for getting out of a straight jacket. Don’t get into one in the first place!
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@WILD:
If I don’t do Taronto,
I think that is rather like coming up with a strategy for getting out of a straight jacket. Don’t get into one in the first place!
LOL, sometimes you don’t get a choice, they just show up and take you away to the funny farm where life is wonderful all the time……or you just get sick of the same old dance.
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Back to the point, a Taranto with a 92 merge is possible under the right scenario. Keep the CV out, take the plane which has to land on it as a casualty but that also assumes there is fleet in SZ110 to merge with.
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Back to the very original point of the Afrika Korps plan, we can assume that an I2 capture of Italy was due to either extremely good/bad dice rolls or inexperience on the side of the Allies. It is not the result of a good general strategy that can be repeated regularly against strong opponents.
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@Arthur:
Back to the very original point of the Afrika Korps plan, we can assume that an I2 capture of Italy was due to either extremely good/bad dice rolls or inexperience on the side of the Allies. It is not the result of a good general strategy that can be repeated regularly against strong opponents.
The capture of Egypt by I2 was done as following. UK did not do Taranto, no Ethiopia or Tobruk but reinforced Egypt and made red sea fleet. Fighters in London attacked the lone Bismarck (full health) and bomber 2 subs in SZ106 with all atlantic ships (destroyer and cruiser). India did not sent its aircraft, the main reason could be because I sent the Japanese fleet 3 sea zones from India. The player was playing the UK for the second time so inexperience might have mattered.
I1 bought 1 Fighter and took Trans-Jordan with 4 Infantry, Alex full force and Sudan full force. Then Germany send 1 Fighter to Trans-Jordan and 1 Tactical and Fighter to Alexandria (imagine if all airforce is send) in G2. UK2 recaptures Trans-Jordan to open suez and prevent Italy from reaching oil. This takes 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery and 1 Tank out of Egypt supported by 2 Fighters and 1 Tactical that return to Egypt with 2 Infantry from Persia.
Italy then attacks Egypt with 6 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 1 Mech, 1 Tank, 3 Fighters, 1 Bomber and bombarment with Battleship and Cruiser the following turn taking Egypt.
This was the scenario and if I played myself as UK I had it done diffetently. Personally I love the boxing strategy, so no SZ92, Taranto or Red Sea but encirclement and heavy reinforcement of the Med.
However, with the Bismarck alone within RAF reach, two subs convoying your canadian coast, Germany doing a Sea Lion buy and positioning transport to take London, Japan a India buy and positioning to take India in 2 turns I guess you might expect similiar UK reactions and thus indeed a strategy to follow in next games.
Also remember my original Afrika Korps strategy is based on a G4 capture of Egypt. I got lucky but might be lucky again because of the threat I create with both Germany and Japan before the UK even starts his first turn, making him reconsider going 100% med offense/defense.
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Thanks for the details Afrika Korps. You will need to start testing this strategy against higher quality opponents since almost anything is going to succeed against relative novices. The top League players have several hundred games played in their lifetimes. They very rarely make a significant blunder. Letting Egypt fall on I2 is a massive blunder and almost any Axis strategy would succeed at that point.
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