The Spanish Beachhead: American Strategy

There is also this scenario, I have faced playing Italy…

The German player wants to only kill the Atlantic fleet and will not land planes in Tobruk or Rome.  Germany wanting to get to Moscow on G5/G6… Moscow or bust. CRU off Gib lives…no attack on it.

The Japanese player wants to DOW on J2 , and wants to get India by J5…

You as the Italian player have to :
A) Provide 2 Tanks and FTR+SBR as can opener.
B) Defend Rome and Paris
C) Once Moscow and India fall, Italy is promised to be let off the leash

In that scenario…  if there is No Tobruk/Taranto…  then , it is preferable to use the 2 Transports to WITHDRAW troops from Libya and Tobruk… (and hit Greece with these)

There are 5+2 = 7 troops (Tank+Mech+2 Art+ 3 Inf) = 27IPCs = 3.5 TRloads… worth a lot of money… that can be used defensively…in Rome… allowing for the Albanian and N. Italian tanks to go forth as can-openers.

If you do not withdraw them… they will be killed for cheap by UK/US… and achieve nothing twiddling their thumbs in Tripoli

Just a thought…

@AldoRaine:

If the allies accept that it is in their best interest to attack the neutrals as soon as logistically possible the best thing UK can do is to stack sz 92 and forgo Taranto turn 1 with a AB purchase for Gib.  The next moves involve locking down the middle east.  I have a unique set of moves that I make in order to do this and if you would like I am happy to go into detail but to keep this post from being to long i will hold off on the specifics.  The end result is that the UK navy is still intact and Egypt/ME is safe.  If this is the case the UK navy can then be used to protect sz 91 by the time the US are going to land allowing more money being sent to the pacific.

This point increases the strength of your strategy. I’m struggling to come up with a counter to it. The obvious counter seems to be sea lion but the naval power projection from SZ92 to SZ109 and SZ110 makes things hard.

I still wonder if you wouldn’t be better off doing Taranto anyway just keeping the CV out. The sub bid in SZ98 makes that a really live option so long as you lose a fighter in the attack. I guess you need a plan B for when that doesn’t happen, a tad under 1 in 6 times: proceed as normal maybe?

I doubt the AB is needed on Gibraltar if Germany has forgone the attack on SZ110. That’s a pretty good fleet you can assemble in SZ92.

Perhaps the best counter is to focus on Japan. You do mention going to a fair bit of length to fly the Calcutta planes to the Middle East. But that’s not much of a counter - more of an admission of defeat.

I guess also going hard against Moscow. G2 DOW is a move I position for as USSR (mainly with a tank in Turkmenistan) but it rarely seems to happen.

I am not allowed to post links, but Google “Wassom + axis + allies” and you should find the link on YouTube to our game 9 video, deploying the SB strategy.  Discussion of pros/cons and highlighting some of the discussion on the forum.  OOB rules; J1 DOW, India fell T4 and Axis won T9. Â

Would love comments/thoughts from the hive mind of the forums.  In particular, successful strategies for Allied on a coordinated J1 DOW using OOB rules (i.e., no bids).  I don’t think SB can ever work under these conditions, but I remain open for further (re)education. Â

We will play Game 10 this weekend.  I am braving the Allies again and trying to slow the J1 DOW war machine.  Video update to follow.

Thanks, Young Grasshopper, for your continued commitment to additional content.  We appreciate your efforts and the time you devote to this project.

Chris

@bulawdog:

We will play Game 10 this weekend. � I am braving the Allies again and trying to slow the J1 DOW war machine. � Video update to follow.

Good luck.

I don’t DOW on J1 any more. The UK1 Pac buy of 1 arm 1 ftr makes strat bombing difficult for Japan, and unless planes are positioned to strike Sumatra J2 they can’t make it. Bombardment leaves alive the TT too. Anyway, You’ve got a bunch of my other comments so good luck and we’ll be interested to see how it goes.

used this build order twice as america last weekend, worked both times.  Against different players so none of them knew what was up.  Both times Germany went sealion too which was weird but fine with me as i’m used to germany doing barbarosa…  We were able to defend UK(barely) both times and allowed the US to drop into spain turn 4.  Thanks for the tips YG! :)  (this is Billthecanuck from youtube)

I think that this strategy is worthwhile even if you don’t get into France. What it does is forces the Axis to come west towards USA and take pressure off USSR. If USSR survives a lot more turns, that helps the Allies massively.

I think there’s a lot of value in taking Spain with America, but I think this should always be a situational strategy rather than one you dedicate yourself to from the beginning.

Some thoughts:

I’d stage my forces in Gibraltar, rather than landing them directly into Spain. Taking Spain and moving your transports home at the same time will allow your transports to hit Spain again  immediately if the Germans manage to take it from you. You do not want to let the Germans attack you in Spain with their air force behind them and then withdraw their vulnerable units before you can kill them. It also keeps Swedish and Turkish men and money out of Axis hands for an extra turn for no real cost to you.

I also think you’re underestimating the devastating impact you’re having on the rest of the map:
Japan easily has the resources to kill your subs in the Pacific for nearly no cost, and defend their destroyers afterwards - their fleet has very little else to do with your near complete Atlantic commitment. I’d be very surprised if a good Japan didn’t take Hawaii the turn after you move your fleet to the Atlantic, and I’m not sure you could kill Germany before they win on VCs.
The Swedish forces given to Germany will pretty effectively secure it’s hold Norway and it’s NO there, and may be turned against Russia - which has plenty of problems already.
The Turkish units, backed by a couple of Italian tanks driven through Greece, will be very hard for the UK to contain without it having defeated Italy decisively and while trying to hold off an unbridled Japan. I’m not sure you can count on that by turn 4.
Russia will be in a very rough place, since Germany has no immediate need to redirect forces to Spain nor hold much back.

Suggestions:
Keep your starting fleet in the pacific, and build it up a bit sooner. The Cruisers and BB in the Atlantic just isn’t worth it for the softenings and an intelligent Germany is simply going to ignore your incredibly expensive flotilla and redirect it’s resources to smashing Russia and building infantry to keep your landings at bay.
Split your TT flotilla in two. 10 units every turn is better than 20 every other, because you can always counter attack. It also keeps Germany and Italy honest by keeping constant landing threat on W. Germany, Rome and Norway. If Germany does decide to build bombers or even ships to try to hit your (no longer invulnerable) Gibraltar fleet you’ll only lose half your TTs, but you should be able to see that coming and reinforce as necessary. If Germany attacks anyway that’s a feature, not a bug - Germany building bombers and having them killed off the coast of Gibraltar keeps pressure off of Russia.

@Amalec:

I’d stage my forces in Gibraltar, rather than landing them directly into Spain. Taking Spain and moving your transports home at the same time will allow your transports to hit Spain again  immediately if the Germans manage to take it from you. You do not want to let the Germans attack you in Spain with their air force behind them and then withdraw their vulnerable units before you can kill them.

To my thinking the whole point is to relieve pressure on Russia as fast as possible. If the Axis accumlates a stack big enough to attack your landing, pressure on Russia is effectively relieved. So you actually want the German player to hit your stack because if he’s hitting Spain he’s not hitting Russia effectively. Furthermore, Axis logistics being what they are, it’s difficult for him to keep hitting Spain without continuous builds that have to walk a long way, so hitting your forces in Spain would actually make it easier for the US to advance in Europe.

@Amalec:

I also think you’re underestimating the devastating impact you’re having on the rest of the map:
Japan easily has the resources to kill your subs in the Pacific for nearly no cost, and defend their destroyers afterwards - their fleet has very little else to do with your near complete Atlantic commitment.

The issue is that Japan does not have enough destroyers to annihilate subs faster than the US can build them. If Japan is building lots of destroyers, then it is sacrificing somewhere else and not achieving victory. Also, if Japan is reacting to the US it may lose strategic focus – it’s very easy to do when the US is sucking away your Japanese income.

@Amalec:

The Turkish units, backed by a couple of Italian tanks driven through Greece, will be very hard for the UK to contain without it having defeated Italy decisively and while trying to hold off an unbridled Japan. I’m not sure you can count on that by turn 4.
Russia will be in a very rough place, since Germany has no immediate need to redirect forces to Spain nor hold much back.

Agreed.  Turkey is very hard to contain if you give it to the Axis this way. The UK cannot be in a position to kill Turkey before Italian activation and also be in a position to properly defend Egypt unless Italy has really messed up.

@Amalec:

Split your TT flotilla in two. 10 units every turn is better than 20 every other, because you can always counter attack. It also keeps Germany and Italy honest by keeping constant landing threat on W. Germany, Rome and Norway.

Yes, this is a much better plan than alternating waves with a turn between reinforcements.

Marsh

@Marshmallow:

To my thinking the whole point is to relieve pressure on Russia as fast as possible. If the Axis accumlates a stack big enough to attack your landing, pressure on Russia is effectively relieved. So you actually want the German player to hit your stack because if he’s hitting Spain he’s not hitting Russia effectively. Furthermore, Axis logistics being what they are, it’s difficult for him to keep hitting Spain without continuous builds that have to walk a long way, so hitting your forces in Spain would actually make it easier for the US to advance in Europe.

In retrospect, it should be pretty obvious from the state of the board whether Germany can counter a 20 division drop into Spain on their upcoming turn. But I would argue that if those units are already in position to attack Spain on the following German turn the pressure against Russia has already been relieved - no reason to let them actually attack you. Still, most likely Germany won’t be in position to counter and so a direct landing in Spain will make sense 9/10 times. My bad.

@Marshmallow:

The issue is that Japan does not have enough destroyers to annihilate subs faster than the US can build them. If Japan is building lots of destroyers, then it is sacrificing somewhere else and not achieving victory. Also, if Japan is reacting to the US it may lose strategic focus – it’s very easy to do when the US is sucking away your Japanese income.

Japan starts with 4 destroyers, and has had no reason to use or commit them elsewhere up to this point. It also has an enormous fleet that is effectively unchallenged. It should be able to kill 3-4 subs per turn with those destroyers and protect them afterward, with little to no loses to itself. I don’t think that’s going to work for USA unless it has a large enough fleet to counter attacks on it’s subs in range - and I don’t think it’ll be able to do that until turn 5-6 after moving the Pacific fleet to the Atlantic. Plenty of time for Japan to go crazy.

@Amalec:

Japan starts with 4 destroyers, and has had no reason to use or commit them elsewhere up to this point. It also has an enormous fleet that is effectively unchallenged. It should be able to kill 3-4 subs per turn with those destroyers and protect them afterward, with little to no loses to itself. I don’t think that’s going to work for USA unless it has a large enough fleet to counter attacks on it’s subs in range - and I don’t think it’ll be able to do that until turn 5-6 after moving the Pacific fleet to the Atlantic. Plenty of time for Japan to go crazy.

It would be foolish of Japan to detach all its destroyers from its fleet if the US is playing sub swarm though. Furthermore, if Japan is protecting its destroyers Japan has definitely got its priorities wrong and is not using its fleet to achieve victory but to stave off defeat. Allied victory this is!

Marsh

@Marshmallow:

It would be foolish of Japan to detach all its destroyers from its fleet if the US is playing sub swarm though. Furthermore, if Japan is protecting its destroyers Japan has definitely got its priorities wrong and is not using its fleet to achieve victory but to stave off defeat. Allied victory this is!

Marsh

Sub-swarm is a bit of a misnomer here. YG is advocating no Pacific build until A4. That leaves 2 DD 1 SS 1SB in the Pacific until the end of A4, and 4 DD 5 SS 3SB at the start of A5. A5 those can move to Hawaii - if America stills controls it (big if) and Japan doesn’t have enough ships staged in Japan or the Carolines to kill a handful of 1s and 2s parked off Hawaii (bigger if). A6 they can begin to harass Japan, supported by America’s A5 Pacific builds now in Hawaii - which will be at best 2 more subs because of the 60+ IPC needed to build 20 units for the Atlantic transports on A5.

By J7 when those subs have their first chance to raid Japan the Dutch money islands will be securely Japanese and the British/ANZAC fleets will be destroyed or contained.

I’m not saying sub-swarm is a bad idea, or that KGF is a bad idea. But if you send most of the Pacific fleet to the Atlantic and don’t build anything else until A4 then you’re simply praying for the Japanese player to be terrible, because if he isn’t he’s going to win the game on VCs before Germany even starts to sweat.

Keeping the Pacific fleet intact and adding 2-3 SS/DDs a turn is absolutely necessary to keep Japan honest. Without it they barely have to defend their builds in the Sea of Japan, so they can go all out elsewhere. They can easily take Hawaii. They can split their fleet into pieces to move against India and Australia at the same time, instead of having to choose.

I agree with the other commenters, the pacific board need more development. You need a plan to prevent japan from taking more than 1 of Hawaii, Sidney and India.  There is a few ways of defending it.
Hawaii:
If you really want to defend hawaii, you need to stack it. That can be done by TTs and infs. They are well placed there and can be used later when you go on the offensive.

India:
3 UK mIC in Egypt, Iraq and Iran should allow you to produce a lot of mechs and some planes in that area. It is vital to keep them close enough, so that you can send them to india in time to defend india. This does not work against an india crush ofc. If enough preassure is taken of USSR , then the red airfoce is a nice addition to the indian defence while waiting for some USSR mobile forces and other british support. Some of the US/UK fighters on the CVs in the med could also make an appearance.

Sidney:
BUILD ALOT OF troops, help isnt coming :/. This means that you probably should make sure to build 3 units every single turn, and none of then should be naval or bombers.

@Amalec:

@Marshmallow:

To my thinking the whole point is to relieve pressure on Russia as fast as possible. If the Axis accumlates a stack big enough to attack your landing, pressure on Russia is effectively relieved. So you actually want the German player to hit your stack because if he’s hitting Spain he’s not hitting Russia effectively. Furthermore, Axis logistics being what they are, it’s difficult for him to keep hitting Spain without continuous builds that have to walk a long way, so hitting your forces in Spain would actually make it easier for the US to advance in Europe.

In retrospect, it should be pretty obvious from the state of the board whether Germany can counter a 20 division drop into Spain on their upcoming turn. But I would argue that if those units are already in position to attack Spain on the following German turn the pressure against Russia has already been relieved - no reason to let them actually attack you. Still, most likely Germany won’t be in position to counter and so a direct landing in Spain will make sense 9/10 times. My bad.

After watching the youtubevideo of bulawdog  I could see that he did exactly this mistake.

It seems like YG should have stated it in his script.

US4: look at the map;
If you look at the board and conclude that germany will kill your beachhead comfortably, then you have to land in gibraltar on US4.

US5: Look at the map;
3 options; 1, no attack,2 attack spain, 3 attack somewhere else
If germany can still kill you, and have enough units to defend against your counterattack, then you cannot attack spain. If you see a good target of opertunity (N/S italy or W germany) you can attack there.  Otherwise, keep your army in GIB.

US6: Look at the map;
If you sendt your fleet back, your attack on spain should now be at least 44 units strong, and you hsould have 40ish units left. Germany should never be able to counterattack that. If he is, then USSR is having a great day, and should have reinforced india a long time ago.

The only turn I allow Sydney to build less than 3 units is the first - 1TT 1inf.

@simon33:

The only turn I allow Sydney to build less than 3 units is the first - 1TT 1inf.

Even if a full KJF is in effect, or specifically for a Spanish Beachhead?

Any time.

I was wondering whether you decide from the outset to do the Spanish Beach Head or if there are Axis cues that make it a viable strategy?

This is firstly a q posed to YG but would of course greatly appreciate others input as well. :)

Even tho I am not YG, I will make a suggestion (with any strategy). You should always reconsider your strategy.

In every turn, you should decide if you will continue with the strategy or do something else.  For example, If germany tries for sealion, but has to stop because he loses too many planes in G1, then you really don’t need that many boats. If germany drops 10 subs on G2, then you need more boats, perhaps, you should bail out and do a KJF instead. What you should not do is to continue with your Spanish beachhead, only to see your fleet get killed by the german navy.

Any strategy worth considering is a strategy that keeps enough options open to react to enemy moves. In the Spanish beachhead, you don’t have to commit until shifting your pacific fleet to the atlantic (US3). until then, you have just bought a little bit extra for the german front early and can still switch to a full KJF. You can even switch your atlantic fleet to the pacific if you like.