French prisons worse than Club Gitmo??

@Janus1:

It’s funny watching Americans decry the prisons of another nation.

its funny that you are so prejudiced that you cant make a fair assessment.

i can’t make a fair assessment? Of what?
It certainly does not sound like French jails are a picnic. It does seem to me that Americans have some work to do in this regard before they use a French prison to justify their own penal shortcomings (pun intended).

Now don’t get me wrong - i think that the Canadian justice system is at times a complete joke, and from the security guards and prisoners i’ve talked with in the ER/OR, our prisons are not nearly dissuading enough. Still, Gitmo should not stand until all of its prisoners have had a speedy trial and compensation for those found innocent who have been held there. Or do the French ALSO believe that people should not get a trial before going to jail

oh yes Imp-y. You certainly handed me my a$$ back there.

Does France have a death penalty, or is America the only industrialized country left that has a state-sponsored method of killing innocent people? How can Americans even think to judge other countries’ penal systems when we still have something as barbaric as the death penalty in place?

You guys have no idea how bad French prisons are. Don’t try to make this a death penalty debate, it’s not. Thats a seperate issue.

Imagine being isolated in a concrete room, one meter by one meter. It is wet, cold, and completely dark. You share the space with rats. Once or twice a day, the door opens and some guard brings you something that barely qualifies as edible. Now imagine this concrete room for months or years at a time. Also imagine this in the context of a justice system which presumes guilt before innonence.

That is what we’re talking about in terms of French prisons. US prisons are a walk in the park compared to them.

You guys have no idea how bad French prisons are. Don’t try to make this a death penalty debate, it’s not. Thats a seperate issue.

Good point lets not go that direction with this. A French prison must be infinately better than what Club Medd (Gitmo) offers, and much better than Saddams prisons before we swept up that mess.

@Yanny:

You guys have no idea how bad French prisons are. Don’t try to make this a death penalty debate, it’s not. Thats a seperate issue.

Imagine being isolated in a concrete room, one meter by one meter. It is wet, cold, and completely dark. You share the space with rats. Once or twice a day, the door opens and some guard brings you something that barely qualifies as edible. Now imagine this concrete room for months or years at a time. Also imagine this in the context of a justice system which presumes guilt before innonence.

That is what we’re talking about in terms of French prisons. US prisons are a walk in the park compared to them.

Imagine being killed for something you didn’t do. Imagine having electrodes on your balls and a confession paper a corrupt detective wants you to sign.

“One of the 13 exonerated Illinois inmates, Anthony Porter, spent 15 years on death row and was within two days of being executed before a group of student journalists at Northwestern University uncovered evidence that was used to prove his innocence.”

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/illinois.executions.02/

What kind of torture do you want? Bad food and water? A cramped cell? Sitting on death row, waiting to be killed? You would like to ignore the death penalty because it makes America look hypocritical, but any talk of prisons, must also include death row. How hypocritical to talk about another country’s failed prisons and ignore the thousands waiting to die in our own.

Its nice to dig up some example of a few items that are not in fact the pattern of how our prisons work. The french example looks like the common display of how they do things, while in every prison there are people who are innocent and latter get off. In France we see what happens every day because it is in fact “the pattern”.

On balance I would say that considering capital punishment as part of the US system is a valid point. People getting off for something they didn’t do is one thing, but evidently that kind of instance is happening more and more in the US death penalty system. Mary has posted an old article, but that student group is still running, has freed around 160 death row inmates based on DNA evidence, and are about to turn their work into a US national project. The Republican Illinois governor actually suspended all capital punishment because of their efforts.

Now, regarding French v. American v. Guantanamo, I’m rather agnostic. The French treatment of prisoners is likely worse once you’re inside, but the US appears to incarcerate a disproportionate number of its citizens. But, then, I think we’re talking about shades, if not flavors, of “bad.” Prison is bad anyway you cut it, but how it is bad depends on the inmate. Is it the psychological toll it takes, the brutal prison social system, or the social stigmatism after one leaves? And is it even possible to compare these? I think so, but it’ll take a more nuanced approach than we’ve seen here.

This has become interesting to me in many respects.

First, I find myself totally in contradiction with Mary - I’m for the death penalty (in rare circumstances only) and against abortion. Mary, unless I am mistaken about your views (correct me if I am wrong) you take the opposite view. I’d really like to understand how you conclude that abortion of an innocent baby is OK, but capital punishment for the worst mass murdering crack-addicted pedophile imaginable would not be acceptable. I’m not making light of your viewpoint, I just would like to know how you reconcile this.

Secondly, I really think the point about normal procedures vs. rare exceptions does apply. It is rare (I hope and the few statistics available tend to show this) for atrocities as you describe in the US. And how do you know this doesn’t happen in France? And at what rate in France? As these things are usually hidden, we probably will never know for certain, but it seems the normal cell is better in the US than in France in all ways Chengora described. But again, the comparisons of the % of population favors France. Also, the death penalty is a rare occurance, even in Texas, and usually takes several decades of appeals. When people can die of old age before their penalty, I’m not sure why this is an issue.

How can Americans even think to judge other countries’ penal systems when we still have something as barbaric as the death penalty in place?

I’m also not sure why the absence of the death penalty somehow makes the prison system more humane. Why is it barbaric? Some prisoners want to die because of guilt for their crimes - a life sentence could be viewed as worse. If we take the approach that prison should be a deterent to crime, perhaps this is better?! :o For that matter, how can France think to judge us (both in the States and Gitmo) if this is the best they can do for their prisoners? It does cut both ways here, although to be fair I am not sure how much of the Gitmo criticism is from France and how much from other places.

Finally, Chengora is right,

it’ll take a more nuanced approach

to answer all the questions brought up.

What kind of torture do you want? Bad food and water? A cramped cell? Sitting on death row, waiting to be killed? You would like to ignore the death penalty because it makes America look hypocritical, but any talk of prisons, must also include death row. How hypocritical to talk about another country’s failed prisons and ignore the thousands waiting to die in our own.

first of all, the quality of the prisons is a seperate issue from the justice system. there is a connection, but you can not conflate the two to the point where you start discussing a justice system which incorporates the death penalty, and incarcerates innocent people at times, as equal to a PHYSICAL prison, where the conditions are as harsh as some french prisons. since what we are discussing is the PHYSICAL prison, and not the justice system that puts people there.

but since you INSIST on bringing a seperate issue into this, fine, lets talk about it.

in 2003, 3369 people were on death row in the US. only 65 of them were executed that year. this is a trend that has been continuing for many years

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

you also assume a point of view where the death penalty is “barbaric”. i dont believe this at all. and i dont ignore the death penalty. i celebrate it. there must be an ultimate punishment. the current system needs revision, but i absolutely agree with the death penalty in general.

I find it funny the way people actually give a damn how the French treat their prisoners.

So Janus, Yanny, and 221b - how does death row differ from:

1. the general prison
2. French prisons?
   What about solitary confinement?

Also it does not sound like Sheriff Joe has the most enlightened prison system in the world either (although i kind of do like his style).

Note: i did read Papillon. Nasty stuff that.

(and an FYI - i am alligned with 221b on the abortion thing, and i’m alligned with Mary on the death-penalty thing)

Imagine being killed for something you didn’t do. Imagine having electrodes on your balls and a confession paper a corrupt detective wants you to sign.

“One of the 13 exonerated Illinois inmates, Anthony Porter, spent 15 years on death row and was within two days of being executed before a group of student journalists at Northwestern University uncovered evidence that was used to prove his innocence.”

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/illinois.executions.02/

What kind of torture do you want? Bad food and water? A cramped cell? Sitting on death row, waiting to be killed? You would like to ignore the death penalty because it makes America look hypocritical, but any talk of prisons, must also include death row. How hypocritical to talk about another country’s failed prisons and ignore the thousands waiting to die in our own.

That is a completely seperate issue. Mary, I’m a liberal as you are, but I’m just admitting fact right here. It’s not a political stance. I’d rather do 10 years in a US prison than 6 months in a French prison.

The jury system of conviction absolutely has it’s problems. I’m not saying I support the death penalty (though the Constitution specifically mentions it, so we can’t eliminate it easily), but that question is irrelevent when assessing different country’s prisons.

So we still execute people in the US. I’d prefer a country with an innocent-first justice system with the death penalty than a guilt-first system system without it.

But we’re discussing prisons here. Just prisons. And again, I’d rather spend 10 years in an American prison than 6 months in a french one.

@Yanny:

Imagine being killed for something you didn’t do. Imagine having electrodes on your balls and a confession paper a corrupt detective wants you to sign.

“One of the 13 exonerated Illinois inmates, Anthony Porter, spent 15 years on death row and was within two days of being executed before a group of student journalists at Northwestern University uncovered evidence that was used to prove his innocence.”

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/illinois.executions.02/

What kind of torture do you want? Bad food and water? A cramped cell? Sitting on death row, waiting to be killed? You would like to ignore the death penalty because it makes America look hypocritical, but any talk of prisons, must also include death row. How hypocritical to talk about another country’s failed prisons and ignore the thousands waiting to die in our own.

That is a completely seperate issue. Mary, I’m a liberal as you are, but I’m just admitting fact right here. It’s not a political stance. I’d rather do 10 years in a US prison than 6 months in a French prison.

The jury system of conviction absolutely has it’s problems. I’m not saying I support the death penalty (though the Constitution specifically mentions it, so we can’t eliminate it easily), but that question is irrelevent when assessing different country’s prisons.

So we still execute people in the US. I’d prefer a country with an innocent-first justice system with the death penalty than a guilt-first system system without it.

But we’re discussing prisons here. Just prisons. And again, I’d rather spend 10 years in an American prison than 6 months in a french one.

Ten years is a long time. But given equal sentences, I would probably prefer doing time in America. However, I would also point out I would rather be wrongfully convicted of murder in France, than in Texas.

So Janus, Yanny, and 221b - how does death row differ from:

1. the general prison
2. French prisons?
   What about solitary confinement?

death row is a rather benign confinement. the real punishments in this state is psychological. but, consider that those on death row have already committed the harshest of crimes. also consider that given the stats i have already provided, it is rare that a condemned mans sentence is actually carried out. more often than not, he will die in prison, rather than be executed. as for innocents: there will always be innocent victims in any system. i disagree with justice system, and this is where the fault lies. when an innocent man is condemned to death, this is the fault of the justice system, not the death penalty.

what you continue to ignore, stubbornly, is that french prisons are notoriously regarded as hell-holes. the same can be said of russian prisons actually. compared to these, US prisons are country clubs. these are not my sentiments, but those of people who have experienced the alternatives. i saw a history channel special on the mafia, which had a story about some russian mafiosos who were busted in the US. they essentially shrugged, noting that theyd much rather spend time in a US prison than a Russian prison. you criticize US prisons, but refuse to acknowledge that other countries actually have WORSE prisons. PHYSICAL prisons. not justice systems. not sentences (though many do have worse systems as well, its a seperate issue) but PHYSICAL prisons. the actual facilities.

Honestly, I’d rather they kill me than make me live my life out in a French prison.

Chew on this.

http://simplyappalling.blogspot.com/2005/07/french-prisons-follow-american.html

But you are uniting two seperate issues. If you want to talk about our justice and jury system, make a thread on it. I’ll be the first one to post in it. But we’re strictly talking about prisons, and the US is by no means nearly as bad as France or Italy in that category.

@221B:

This has become interesting to me in many respects.

First, I find myself totally in contradiction with Mary - I’m for the death penalty (in rare circumstances only) and against abortion. Mary, unless I am mistaken about your views (correct me if I am wrong) you take the opposite view.

True

I’d really like to understand how you conclude that abortion of an innocent baby is OK, but capital punishment for the worst mass murdering crack-addicted pedophile imaginable would not be acceptable

.

Because a one-celled organism is not a person. A “mass murdering crack-addicted pedophile” is. I’m a reincarnationist, so my beliefs about ending life early are pretty outside the norm. An aborted fetus’s soul simply occupies the next available body (think of it like a bunch of people in a butcher shop waiting for their number to be called).

But even on a non-reincarnationist viewpoint, it is VERY hard to argue that a zygote should have the same rights as a person. At most you can argue that it is a potential person, which doesn’t really mean much when stacked up against the rights of an actual person. If I buy a lotto ticket, I’m a potential millionaire, but I doubt anyone will give me a loan because of it.

As much as people hate to admit it, a “mass murdering crack-addicted pedophile” is a person and should be treated as such. Is it not possible for them to be truly repentant? To understand what they did was wrong? I would rather give them a lifetime to ponder what they did, then cut it short before they ever can come to terms with it (but this is because I believe people should learn from mistakes for the next life).

But Christians should be against the death penalty as well, since it runs counter to everything Jesus preached. And on a Christian level, if you kill someone before they “accept Christ”, you’ve condemned them to hell. Where is the harm in giving them time to eventually repent? If they never do, they’re still going to hell, but even the most wicked sinner can reach heaven, if they are truly repentful. Why take that oppurtunity away from someone?

Lastly, yes they did horrible things. Should the state stoop to their level and finish them off? What good could it possibly do? Make the families feel better? If someone harmed my kid, hurting them badly might make me feel better, but should I be allowed to? Where does it end? An Old West shootout? We should be careful executing people for reasons of “closure” (which, I think, is just a equphemism for revenge).

Secondly, I really think the point about normal procedures vs. rare exceptions does apply. It is rare (I hope and the few statistics available tend to show this) for atrocities as you describe in the US. And how do you know this doesn’t happen in France? And at what rate in France? As these things are usually hidden, we probably will never know for certain, but it seems the normal cell is better in the US than in France in all ways Chengora described. But again, the comparisons of the % of population favors France. Also, the death penalty is a rare occurance, even in Texas, and usually takes several decades of appeals. When people can die of old age before their penalty, I’m not sure why this is an issue.

I don’t know where you’re going with the first part. France doesn’t have a death penalty, so they never have a chance to wrongfully kill someone. We do, and every so often, we DO wrongfully kill someone. It may be rare, but how often should a govt. be killing innocent people? Never is a good answer, I think.

Some prisoners want to die because of guilt for their crimes - a life sentence could be viewed as worse.

Could be, but we don’t exactly let condemned people choose to be executed or not. I’m betting most people would opt for the life-sentence, given the choice.

If we take the approach that prison should be a deterent to crime, perhaps this is better?!

Is the death penalty a deterrent to crime? Both sides can cite studies all day. I simply don’t think the government should be in a position to execute innocent people, even if it IS a deterent.

For that matter, how can France think to judge us (both in the States and Gitmo) if this is the best they can do for their prisoners? It does cut both ways here, although to be fair I am not sure how much of the Gitmo criticism is from France and how much from other places.

I didn’t know the French were complaining about us. But our practice of holding people for years without even CHARGING them is shameful.

Mary,

Thanks for sharing your views. I don’t agree with them but I appreciate gaining a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Quote:
Secondly, I really think the point about normal procedures vs. rare exceptions does apply. It is rare (I hope and the few statistics available tend to show this) for atrocities as you describe in the US. And how do you know this doesn’t happen in France? And at what rate in France? As these things are usually hidden, we probably will never know for certain, but it seems the normal cell is better in the US than in France in all ways Chengora described. But again, the comparisons of the % of population favors France. Also, the death penalty is a rare occurance, even in Texas, and usually takes several decades of appeals. When people can die of old age before their penalty, I’m not sure why this is an issue.

I don’t know where you’re going with the first part.

Basically I’m responding to the part about forcing confession by torture. I should have been more clear, but I was trying to not write too much.

But our practice of holding people for years without even CHARGING them is shameful.

Strongly agree with this.

One other point:

I would also point out I would rather be wrongfully convicted of murder in France, than in Texas.

Since one murder conviction is very, very, very unlikely to result a death sentence even in Texas (you really have to have multiple convictions for really bad things and have very poor legal representation to receive the death penalty), give me Texas before France for this as well.

CC: I don’t have much first hand experience with death row, or with prison for that matter. However, the physical accomodations are better than in France. Whether or not capital punishment should be given is a different question altogether than the fact that our prisoners have their physical needs met and are treated with dignity and respect in as much as is realistic given the constraints of imprisonment. At Gitmo, on the other hand… :(

@Janus1:

So Janus, Yanny, and 221b - how does death row differ from:

1. the general prison
2. French prisons?
   What about solitary confinement?

what you continue to ignore, stubbornly, is that french prisons are notoriously regarded as hell-holes.

this is a stupid thing to say. If you don’t know the answer to my question, than simply ignore it. Or is this just a matter of ignoring the log in ones’ own eye to whine about the log in someone elses’?
Still, no one has answered my question yet.

you criticize US prisons, but refuse to acknowledge that other countries actually have WORSE prisons. PHYSICAL prisons.

actually i havn’t yet. You are so blinded by prejudice something something something. I havn’t defended French prisons, i just laugh at the outrage expressed by Americans w.r.t. French prisons when the US penal system looks so problematic.
“ours is terrible, but at least it isn’t as bad as FRANCE’S”.
I guess by this standard, i could mock just about everything American all the time . . . .
Oh yeah - i already do :P

i could mock just about everything American all the time . . . .

you do that anyway on everything out of your own slanted prejudice so whats the point??

I havn’t defended French prisons, i just laugh at the outrage expressed by Americans w.r.t. French prisons when the US penal system looks so problematic.

i havent seen anyone yet express outrage. also, you acknowledge yourself that you are comparing French PRISONS, with the US PENAL SYSTEM. you cant compare the two. it doesnt work
i havn’t compared the two yet. Also i am wondering about your definition of “outrage”.

“ours is terrible, but at least it isn’t as bad as FRANCE’S”.

no, actually, ours is quite good. im not at all pleased with our justice and penal system, but the physical prisons are quite good. not even relative to france, but in general.

ahhh ok. So the prison buildings in America are fine - the prisons themelves suck then?

I guess by this standard, i could mock just about everything American all the time . . . .
Oh yeah - i already do

and yet, when americans mock anything about another country, there is such hostility from you.

:cry:
not true.
Also i was exaggerating. I criticise much more than i mock. The only thing American that i mock is their President. Sadly too much that is Canadian is a reflection of American “values” so i would find myself far too often mocking issues of my own nation (which i already do, by the way).