Carrier Fighters & Tac Bombers

@Argothair:

My question is more about what do you do when you only have enough sculpts or enough attention span to play with one type of fighter. Is there a way to keep island bases vs. carrier bases balanced with only one type of fighter?

Or to put it another way: introducing a special extra unit simply for the sake of creating more unit variety is one thing, but introducing a special unit in order to fix a perceived problem with the game map or with the game rules is something else.  It’s not necessarily a bad idea, but perhaps an adjustment to the rules would be a more direct approach.

It is always good to start by playing triple A, USA8, as a way of learning the basics. That is how many of us started out.

Of course you can now play other members of the forum using triple A. If you ever want to do that and need any pointers at what to do then just ask.

It may be hard to find an opponent who wants to play 1941 however.

There is some modifications compared to the opening post of this actual thread (mostly about AAA, TcB, Cruiser and BB anti-air capacity):

Here is the most preeminent 9 features which revised actual units combat value and interaction in play:

First, except for 4 specific units: AAA’s, TcB’s, Fgs’ and Subs’ casualties, all casualties are now chosen by the owner and there is no specific order for any units, including Transports.

Anti-Aircraft Artillery now defends almost as OOB but in every round against up to 2 aircrafts,

Fighter A2 D2-3 M4 at 6 IPCs (hit plane first) and
a weaker Tactical Bomber A3 D2 M4 C8, aiming at AAAs first and applying Combined Arms only to support Tank +1 offense or defense.
This makes two different planes with distinctive functions.
This fighter unit (remotely related to his 1914 counter-part) is the long awaited answer to this question: “why planes can’t hit planes in A&A?”

This also includes a still acceptable historical Strategic Bombing Raid escort and intercept combat values in which:
Fighter gets A2 D2-3,
Tactical Bombers A1 first strike
Strategic Bombers A1 first strike against up to 2 Fgs, whichever the lesser (works like the new AAA, for a single combat round).

3-planes Aircraft Carrier at 14 IPCs with 2 hits and defending @3 (carrying up to 3 planes whether Fighters or Tactical Bombers).
The defense is highered up to D3 to keep with a full 3 Fgs load a similar advantage (to OOB) over attacking Carrier with 3 TcBs.
In addition, G40.2 Carrier at 16 IPCs also receive an additional single opening first strike defensive AA capacity against up to 2 planes, similar to AAA unit.

A costlier Submarine A3 D1 at 7 IPCs with same offensive and lesser defensive combat value compared to OOB but an increase elusiveness against Destroyers,

Destroyer A2 D2 blocking submarines’ Surprise Strike as OOB, but 1:1 for Submerge (1 round only) and Stealth Move
In addition, any hit by planes against submarines is treated normally: planes need no more special presence of Destroyer to hit submarine.

Transport able to defend: A0 1D1 maximum per TPs group, 1 hit, at 8 IPCs and get a combat value which simplify interactions with other units.

A reduced cost structure for warships mostly based on Advanced Shipyard Tech,
keeping the OOB scale cost ratio between warships: 1 DD+ 1 CA= 1 BB.
Increasing Naval actions while keeping a high 8 IPCs for this transport unit, thus making it a more expensive sea-fodder (if someone choose to use them as such).

Also, it contains 2 additional units from HBG (to get a more complete historical roster of weapons) such as:
Mechanized Artillery A2-3 D2-3 M2 which becomes a substantial and competitive units at 5 IPCs,
Escort Carrier D2, carrying 1 plane (Fg or TcB) (an historical 1/3 ratio of Fleet Carrier capacity) with Anti-Sub Vessel capacity same as Destroyer.

So, now you get my simpler complete A&A units historical roster incremented scale by 1 IPC from 3 IPCs to 10 IPCs, then 14, 16, 17 IPCs, and a smoother game mechanics.
It is as balance (within itself, IMO) and as close as possible from historical feel dynamics without too much sacrifice toward complexity.

The more interesting feature is the Fighter unit at same cost with Tank.
It is more able to figure the usefulness of Tank, Tactical Bomber and Fighter (3 important driving machine-weapons of WWII) on the battleground, not just Tank, and make them almost equivalent loss, from IPCs POV.

Tank (A3-4 D3-4 M2 C6) gets a better offensive and defensive punch and can be shielded by AAA, Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Artillery, Mechanized Artillery and Heavy Artillery units as fodder. Also, the Tactical Bomber is giving it a +1 Air Support bonus.
This make now Tank the most important unit in ground combat.

Fighter (A2 D2-3 M4 C6) is more versatile on Sea / Air / Land but have a lower offensive and defensive punch than Tank, and is unable to conquer land territory by itself while being directly vulnerable to AAA unit and other Fighter.

Tactical Bomber A3 D2 M4 C8, applying Combined Arms to support 1:1 Tank +1 offense or defense. But very vulnerable against Fighter while able to directly destroy AAA ground units.

This is a summary of their special abilities (some are house rules I already used and tested):

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D1 CM1 Cost 3, 1 hit,
Each round, up to 2 preemptive defense @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever the lesser, works similar to OOB AAA but can defend each combat round.
Stop any blitz, and defend itself @1 against enemy’s ground units, if no attacking air unit is present.
Can move during combat move phase, can be taken as casualty (owner’s choice).

INFANTRY A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3
Get +1A if paired 1:1 with Artillery or Mechanized Artillery

MECHANIZED INFANTRY A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4,
Get +1 if paired 1:1 with Artillery or Mechanized Artillery
Can Blitz when paired 1:1 with a Tank

ARTILLERY A2 D2 M1 Cost 4
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry

(MECHANIZED ARTILLERY) (Self-Propelled Artillery / Assault Gun) A2-3 D2-3 M2 Cost 5 added for completeness
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry when paired 1:1 with.
Tank Hunter as a Tank Support capacity: gets +1A/D when paired 1:1 with a Tank.
Both bonus can work at the same time.

TANK A3-4 D3-4 M2 Cost 6
Can Blitz
Allow Mechanized Infantry or Mechanized Artillery to Blitz on 1 on 1 basis or a 1:1:1 basis.
Gives +1A/D to Mechanized Artillery when paired 1:1 with
Gets +1A/D from Tactical Bomber when paired 1:1 with
Both bonus can apply.

FIGHTER A2 D2-3 M4, same in SBR Cost 6
Air combat unit, Fighter as an Air Superiority aircraft: All hits are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available, then AAA, and finally other kind of units.
Fighter as part of an extended Air Defense System:
1 Fighter units receive +1 Defense if protecting a territory with an operational Air Base, (for 1942.2, 2 Fgs can scramble from a Victory City instead.)
SBR/TcBR Attack @2, Defend @2, or even Defend @3 for 1 Fg if an operational Air Base is present.
Can scramble in adjacent SZ up to 4 Fgs: 3 defend @2 and 1 defend @3, getting the +1 Defense bonus from an operational Air Base.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

SUBMARINES A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Surprise Strike, (blocked when at least 1 Destroyer or Anti-Sub Vessel is present),
Submerge, instead of rolling for a Surprise Strike attack (blocked by ASV on a 1:1 basis for the first combat round only),
Stealth Movement: No Hostile Sea-Zone (except ASV can block Submarine Stealth movement on 1:1 basis),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Reality wrecking destroyer rules need a revamp…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34169.msg1372793#msg1372793

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel: each ASV blocks Surprise Strike capacity of all enemy’s Submarine units present.
Cancel Sub’s Submerge on 1 DD:1 Sub basis for the first combat round only
(When it occurs, defending Subs rolls a Defense @1 in the first round, and any surviving Subs can submerge at the beginning of the second combat round.)
Cancel Sub’s Stealth Movement on 1 DD: 1 Sub basis for Combat or Non Combat Move, all additional Sub units can perform a Stealth Movement as usual.

TACTICAL BOMBER A3 D2 M4 Cost 8
All hits are allocated to Anti-Aircraft Artillery units first, if any available, then other kind of units.
Combined Arms bonus with Tank, Tactical Bomber as a “Dive Bomber” and “Tank Buster”:
Gives +1 Attack or Defense to any 1 Tank when paired 1:1.
SBR/TcBR Attack @1 first strike,
Allowed to do escort mission of Strategic Bomber without doing Tactical Bombing Raid on Air Base or Naval Base,
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.
Cannot do interception mission on defense,
TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

TRANSPORT A0 1Def@1 Maximum per TPs group M2 Cost 8, 1 hit
A transports group get a single defense roll @1/round along with defending warships
(for this single defense roll, friendly transports are all considered being part of the same defending player’s group),
and each transport unit can be taken individually as casualty. As long as their is still 1 TP remaining, it can roll this single defense @1.
OPTIONAL: CONVOY protection
To get less impact on the opening set-up battles, a lone transport at the start of a combat gets no defense roll but can be used as a fodder, since it still has 1 hit value. If a transport becomes single during a battle, it still get a defense roll @1, for the duration of the combat.

Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1320853#msg1320853
Must be escorted by a warship when making an amphibious assault in an enemy’s Submarines infested SZ or Transports infested SZ, so to be able to ignore them/ or fight them with combat units.
Otherwise, Submarines and Transports may be ignored during Transport Combat Move or Non Combat Move.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1373212#msg1373212

(1942.2 or G40.2 ESCORT CARRIER) A0 D2 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, added for completeness
Carry 1 Fighter or 1 Tactical Bomber,
Anti-Sub Vessel, working the same as a Destroyer,
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with Battleships or Cruisers: each Cruiser or BB get up to 1 preemptive shot @1 against up to one plane.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

CRUISER A3 D3 M2 Cost 10
Shore bombardment @3
Combined Anti-Air Defense when at least 1 Carrier is present: each Cruiser gets up to 1 preemptive shots @1 against up to 1 plane.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

Strategic BOMBER A4 D1 M6 Cost 10
Strategical Bombing Raid (SBR*)/ TBR : Attack @1 first strike against up to 2 fighters, whichever the lesser, similar to AAA.
SBR/TBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.
If destroyed by IC’s, AB’s or NB’s AA gun, a minimum SBR damage apply: 2 IPCs.
No damage if destroyed by Fighter interceptor.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Rethinking Air Units
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1331015#msg1331015

1942.2 FLEET CARRIER A0 D3 M2 Cost 14, 2 hits
Carry 3 planes (Fgs or TcBs)
Damaged Carrier can still carry 1 plane.
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with Battleships or Cruisers: each Cruiser or BB get up to 1 preemptive shot @1 against up to one plane.

G40.2 FLEET CARRIER A0 D3 M2 Cost 16, 2 hits
Carry 3 planes (Fgs or TcBs)
Damaged Carrier can still carry 1 plane.
Fleet Carrier is an Anti-Air platform: AAA get up to 2 preemptive shots @1 against up to two planes.
AND can also gets
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with Battleships or Cruisers: each Cruiser or BB get up to 1 preemptive shot @1 against up to one plane.

BATTLESHIP A4 D4 M2 Cost 17, 2 hits
Shore bombardment @4
Combined Anti-Air Defense when at least 1 Carrier is present: each BB gets up to 1 preemptive shots @1 against up to 1 plane.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

SBR/TBR escort and intercept combat values:
Fighter: Attack 2 Defense 2 or 3 (+1 to 1 Fg from an operational Air Base)
Tactical Bomber: Attack 1 first strike Defense 0
Strategic Bomber: Attack 1 first strike , as AA gun against up to 2 Fgs, Defense 0
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.

I would allow 2 types of defensive maneuvers for aircraft.
DEFENSIVE MANEUVERS allowed for 2 or 3 types of aircraft:

Aerial Retreat for attacking planes (all aircrafts can retreat while letting ground units pursuing battle),

Limited landing in a just conquered territory (which includes at least 1 ground unit): 2 planes (either Fighter or Tactical Bomber), as long as each units can provide 1 extra movement point for this special landing.

I hope you will comment this whole A&A game changer (and feel free to talk about any features above, if you ever tried in your own F2F A&A game).

New cost structure and document in this thread:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36833.msg1469053#msg1469053

@nerquen:

@Black_Elk:

Here is an example, say you are attacking with 1 ground unit, 1 fighter and 1 bomber. After the first round of combat the ground unit is destroyed, but the fighter and bomber remain. In the second round of combat, is the bomber allowed to participate as fodder for the fighter, even though the HR does not allow the bomber itself continue attacking? Or is the bomber considered no longer part of the fight, ie it is not longer involved in the combat cannot take any enemy hits?

For simplicity, I was thinking not to put any further restrictions on a combat once it started. The HR would really just restrict the number of bombers that one can bring into a battle, but once the battle started it would follow OOB rules. So bombers can be taken as casualties at any chosen time and can also continue battle even if all land units are dead already. This is mostly to allow game play with tripleA without any modifications.

But with little modifications to the game xml file, one can modify bombers such that their attack value is 0, but if they are combined with any land unit or a warship in 1:1 ratio they get +4 attack bonus. It is much more realistic this way and gives space for interesting tactical decisions. Suddenly taking fighters as casualties before last few armors and artilleries supported by bombers is better for maximizing attack power. One would still be allowed to take bombers as casualties at any chosen time, I think that is ok. I will attach an xml file here soon.

Here https://www.dropbox.com/s/2mbsptvi4jxi1ut/World War II Bombers HR.zip?dl=0 you can download the map with bombers having attack value of 0, but if paired with any land unit or a warship* in 1:1 ratio their attack increases to 4. Just unzip the downloaded zip file into maps subfolder of your tripleA installation. Once you launch tripleA select “World War II Global 1940 2nd Ed. - House Ruled Bombers” from the list of available games. I would be interested in any feedback if you try it. You can PM me or post here.

I excluded carriers here, as carriers have attack value of 0 themselves so it would felt weird if they could boost attack of bombers.

This seems like a very interesting system, I’m definitely going to explore this concept with my buddy next time we get a chance. I remember I once tried to play Classic with my friend Oddie using a full fog of war secret move concept. Basically we tried simultaneous phases (ie. all nations purchase at once, then all nations move at once etc.) Roughly modeled things on Risk II’s system (the old cd game by Microprose of the classic RISK boardgame) for “Same Time” Risk.

We used a screen for each player (similar to the old Dungeon Masters screen, a tri-fold that stands upright.) Purchase was planned, written down, and then hidden behind the screen, not revealed until placement. Movement was written down on an index card and kept secret until both players had recorded all their moves. Same thing for Non combat. It was very important in this case to enforce strict separation of game phases, and to write down everything, which was rather involved.

For combat we always rolled the “border clashes” first, so if both players tried to move across the same border (territory to territory) then that combat was always rolled first and both sides as if their units were “attackers.” After border clashes was the normal combat phase for all players, at the same time, with standard attack and defense. Going basically from the left of the board to the right in order.

It was not a terribly successful approach on game balance, since the game is balanced for tbs, but it was fun for a trial. The main issue we had was trying to find a way to take a TBS game, and make it into a “Same Time” game, this necessitates a completely collapsed turn order and more money HRs to work. And after my buddy moved, I just never had anyone around who was motivated enough to try and figure this stuff out.

Trying to do a Same Time Classic game was also the first one where I ever tried to include variable income bonus rolls, and set bonuses to starting cash. Since the turn order advantage was nonexistent, it was necessary to introduce more money for the game to work on a practical level. Basically finding that if you double the starting cash values for each player, and then randomize bonuses thereafter to about double normal income per round, it gave nations enough money to each to basically counterbalance the effect of trying to do all phases at the same time for each nation. (Since everyone is throwing units everywhere, and since the destroyed TUV in round 1 could then be replaced, later in the game, instead of being lost irreparably in the first round.) It was fun, but required a lot of rethinking, in terms of the basics of how the game operates. The "Same Time idea always seemed a better solution for me than a collapsed TBS order that has all Allies going at once, and then all Axis. Same time had it so that all the purchases, moves, combats and placements occurred at the same time for all Nations.

The ideas CWOMarc is suggesting seem like they might offer something similar in the way of secrecy, but without requiring the full “Same Time” dynamic, where everyone does the same phase at once. I’m intrigued to try it out.

As for the cards, I tried my Income bonus rules again last monday, and again I am convinced that Global can support this fairly well. I have yet to introduce the rest of the gamephases into the card game, but feel confident that given the right set up, Axis and Allies can support a random draw mechanic. Just need to keep drafting and testing until I get the right mix

These are just proposed for now, the goal is to reduce the incentive of a J1 DOW and to reduce incentive of an India crush, promoting a more global game.

Placement changes:

Removal of UK BB and 2 transports in SZ 37, replaced with a cruiser. Addition of a UK BB and 1 transport in SZ 39
Reason: Slow down UK DEI expansion and decrease J1 DOW incentive. Replacement of US bomber at Philippines with tac fighter.
Reason: increase SZ defense, also makes it harder to retreat the plane. Replacement of US transport with a destroyer in SZ 26
Reason: reduce dicey J1 pearl grab and sneaky sub J1 attack Addition of Minor IC to Manchuria
Reason: allow japan more build slots

NO changes
Removal of UK Kwangtung & Malaya NO, want to replace it with something but unsure of what.

ANZAC occupation of original jap territory to be for every round.

Replacement of US NO of Phi, to 3 of the following: Phi, Wake, Midway, Pearl.

Replacement of US NO of Iwo and Oki to 2 of the following: Iwo, Oki, Carolinas.

Replacement of Japan Haw NO to any 1 of the following: Haw, Mid, Wake.

Any thoughts.

Tanks are definitely not as good of a buy as they used to be. I think 2 infantry is a much better buy.

the cost of building bombers to deliver 1 infantry to a battle is too much to suatain during the early rounds, unless a game would go for around 20 rounds or more i could not entertain the logistics, the longest game that i played went on for 9 rounds top’s