Exploring cheaper & weaker AAA guns unit to incite purchase

@SS:

@Baron:

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.

AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.

AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.

I still think that at 5 IPCs, you can keep the up to three @1 against 3 planes, which ever is less.

And even with a counter-intuitive unit able to attack and defend as a reg unit:
AAA A1D1M1C5, 1 hit, and fire vs up to 3 planes as OOB.

I can say that it doesn’t change the tactical interest in them.

They may be more balance but the cost is clearly a cold shower.

Probably your AAA suggested should be cheaper.

@SS:

@Baron:

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.

AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.

AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.

Ok now I see what you wrote.
It is like the classic AA gun, all planes are targeted @1
or
1 @1 against all ground troops.

So, in essence, if you have 2 AAA units, 1 will target all planes and the other will target all ground units.

10 IPCs for 2 AAA units and you get, in addition, 1 preemptive strike @1 against all attacking units.

@SS:

You can have more than 1 AA gun in territory. If you have only 1 AA gun in territory then it has to attack planes. If ground troops attack only then the AA gun attacks the Ground troops. If you have 3 AA guns and no planes attack, then 3 AA guns attack ground troops.

4 AA guns in territory = 1 AA gun attacks planes.
3 AA guns attack ground troops.
4 AA guns in territory with no attacking planes = 4 AA guns attack ground troops.

Maybe lower cost to 4 icp`s, but might be to low.

So each AAA, when not targeting planes can defend against 1 single ground unit during the preemptive fire round.
This limitless vs planes AA gun is clearly much more powerful than OOB.
Don’t need to lower the cost. 5 IPCs is just to the limit of OP.
The 1@1 preemptive vs ground is interesting but not historically accurate.

Maybe, just the regular D1 vs ground when no plane or 2 and more AAAs in same territory be enough, since you upgrade the power vs planes.
It will allow AAA to be useful each round when no plane are present.

In itself, your AAA unit should be interesting though.
But it clearly comes back to older way of using AA unit.

I just wonder how the 5 IPCs can compete with other 4 IPCs Mech or 6 IPCs Armor in a game with less cash than G40, such 1942.2.
That’s why I was looking downward cheaper instead of increasing the 5 IPCs AAA capacities.

@SS:

@Baron:

Are you basing all your ideas here and on other posts towards the Global40 Game or some other game? Have you play tested any of your ideas here and other posts in any games?

Sorry, I wrote a longer answer but my computer or the connection get down somehow.

In short, yes I tried some (none on 1941, but all on 1942.1 and 1942.2) but I post many ideas to get a large Spectrum of possibilities before picking one.

On AAA, the one I tried a lot is the result of a previous exchange with Uncrustable (which he also input in his G40Enhanced thread) about AA guns:
A1D1M1C5, 1 hit, + preemptive AA@1 vs up to 3 planes, as OOB.

It is Amon-Sul comments which open my mind about the fact that even this boosted AAA doesn’t change much in our game: few if no additional buying and no real tactical change:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31933.msg1253949#msg1253949

That’s why I was looking for something better : an AAA unit that players will want to buy.

Too be fair about others contribution, I should add that many players suggested to keep OOB AAA with up to 3 preemptive @1 vs planes, but put it at 4 IPCs or, even, 3 IPCs.

So my last main idea, of a AAA A0D1M1C3, on this thread is clearly inspired by ryguy analysis, even if I slighlty lower down the anti-aircraft capacity preemptive @1 to up to 2 planes instead of three aircrafts (trying to keep a balance unit):

@ryguy:

I originally started this thread because I felt that AA guns should be allowed to shoot their full loads (pun intended) at incoming planes instead of being limited to how many planes are attacking. I feel convinced now that that would make AA guns overpowered against planes.

However, that doesn’t fix the fact that no one buys AA guns. It seems like the designers are trying to involve AA guns more by changing their rules, and now each nation has AA units in their own color. Still, no one is going to buy them except in rare cases. As mentioned earlier in this thread, maybe some anti-tank rules will give them versatility. Maybe some kind of pairing scheme where they boost the attack/defense of another type of unit. Maybe lowering the cost to 4 or 3 IPCs. Something that would make you actually consider buying them (I’m sure someone is going to say they buy them all the time).

It’s not that the current AA rules are broken; it’s just that I wish they could do more.

Here is a better presentation of the movement hindrance of AAA unit:
@ryguy:

Part of the problem might be that they are so damn immobile when traveling overseas. Why can’t AA guns move during the combat phase? Would it mess the game up completely? If you capture a territory overland, you can always move the AA gun into that territory during the non-combat phase on the same turn so you are accomplishing the same thing.
You can’t do that via transports however if the transport was involved during the combat phase.
Why can’t you just unload the damn AA guns with the attacking force?
Why not treat AA guns like tanks/mech infantry/artillery in respect to transports?
Why not let the AA guns travel with the attacking force overland during the combat phase?

If we’re talking in real life terms this might seem weird (I’m not a buff on military equipment used in WWII) but it makes them more versatile. You can make it a rule that AA guns can’t be chosen as casualties when attacking if you wish, but they definitely cannot shoot at planes when attacking. They’re just along for the ride. This makes it much easier to transport them overseas without having to purchase separate transports for the non-combat phase. I like mixed arms and this might incorporate AA guns into the mix more often for the Allies.
I’m not sure if I like the idea of one IPC AA guns with one shot. I would rather see the current AA gun scheme with a value of 3-4 IPC’s with the above rule changes about movement perhaps. If they’re valued under infantry they will get used as fodder more than their original purpose and I don’t like that.

I still find it strange that AA guns can be chosen as casualties first.
[…]

@ErwinRommel:

If you want to see more AA guns on the map you can houserule them to cost 4IPC.

Here is one other influence about how I see one of the problem that makes AAA guns a less interesting unit for buying and can be fix relatively easily:
@oztea:

I don’t know why AA guns don’t continue to fire round after round….even just 1 shot. And heck, even just 1 shot, at ‘1’ against other land units.
Lets be realistic here…these things could be pointed at the horizon too.
[…]

Something more coming from Wild Bill:

I think that AA guns soaking hits was done to make up for the fact they don’t shoot at every plane now (limited to 3 air units each). Maybe they should get to fire in every round of the battle, but at a reduced rate. After the opening fire of 3 shots at air units (preempt), allow each gun to continue firing 1 shot at air units in later rounds of the battle, but fire w/other units (no preempt). That would keep them from being used as soakers if air is used in the attack.

Could even remove the preempt roll from the opening round, and allow those air units that are hit by AA to get their attack roll to make up for the multi-rounds use of AA guns. Kinda like how units hit w/bombardment now get to keep their def roll.

I like the changes to AA, but think they should have a limited roll in later rounds of the battle.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149&start=128

Here is similar ideas and some variation for the in-built AAA guns:

I would not be in favor of reducing the cost of AA guns to 2 IPCs, I think that is ridiculous. Maybe 4 IPCs because of its reduced roll, or allow them to continue firing at air craft at 1 shot per AA gun in later rounds of the same battle to keep them relevant (not taken as the first causality if your going to lose the tt, but they have air units) .

Should be added to SBR rules IMO:

1. Each facility is simulated to have 1 built in AA gun that fires 3 shots in SBR. Any bmrs/tacs in excess to 3 would not get shot at. (maybe allow major ICs to have 2 built in AA guns showing more commitment to AA def for a larger infrastructure, 6 shots)

2. Any facility that has 1/2 damage or more also shuts down its AA ability. Your allies may be able to SBR w/o AA cover, or if they don’t fix it you can bury it on your next turn w/less risk or no risk.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149&start=136

Here is my latest version of a Modified AAA with up to 2 preemptive @1 which is nearer the actual OOB AAA ( up to 3 planes):
@Baron:

Here is what I would try to input to find how it have an impact over planes tactics and buying:

AAA A0D1M1C3, 1 hit, can move during CM but not into any enemy’s territory, on the first round, if any attacking plane, _**instead of regular D1, gets a preemptive AA@1 targeting up to 2 planes whichever is less, and keeping a regular D1 after first round.
This unit can also be left alone to defend a territory (contrary to the actual OOB).
It can be seen as a kind of Garrison unit: cannot attack, can only move in already conquered territory but can be left behind against invaders to make a casualty.

And, with 1D1, it is half chance to hit than Inf. But if the attacker take the risk to use plane to invade the territory, then the defender can get the “jack pot” and sometimes be able to crash down an enemy’s plane.

Of course transport can only hold: up to 1 Inf and 1 AAA.
AAA can now be put on a transport during Combat Move, to increase tactics and speed.
I would allow this special transport off-load of AAA unit during NCM:
Can unload from a non-moving transport during NCM, even if the transport unload during Combat Move in the same SZ.

Inspired by some questions from Limo a new Conscript,
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33139.msg1255719#msg1255719
I want to introduce per comparison a still simpler AAA unit than my latest Modified AAA which will be nearer a regular unit as possible (but keeping some historical feel).

Some basics principles of regular unit are:
1 unit can destroy 1 unit per combat round.
1 unit fire once per combat round.
1 unit worth 1 hit. (Except for costlier BB and CV.)

So, let’s AAA be a defensive only unit @1.
Let’s it be able to target 1 single plane per combat round.

The initial preemptive strike is kept (for balance vs actual start-up board.)
But should be abandon to be in phase with other regular unit.
The preemptive @1 vs planes must be kept only for Strategic Bombing Raid vs Industrial Complex, Naval Base and Air Base.

As a defensive unit with A0, it can only move during NCM.
However, 1 transport can load up to 2 AAA units or 1 Inf and 1 AAA, (take same cargo space as 1 Inf).
(This last point will partly resolve the slower transport problem with AAA on amphibious assault. Because you can now keep behind 1 dedicated transport for 2 AAA units moving only in NCM.)

Final result:
Simplified AAA unit:
Attack 0
Defense 1
Move 1 Non-combat only.
Cost 3 IPCs
Hit taken: 1
Always target plane first (if any present), only 1 plane per round.
For the initial round only: get 1 preemptive strike vs 1 plane.
It gives AAA the capacity to fire every round after first one, 1@1 but only to the maximum of aircraft over the territory.
Even if there is more AAAs than planes in a given round, it still be 1 dice/plane max.
We must considered that all extra AAAs in excess of planes will get a regular Defence roll @1.
Transport can pick up to 2 AAAs (take same cargo space as 1 Infantry).
I think it is still balance, especially for four rounds or fewer battles (maybe AAA will be more valuable for longer battle, IDK).

It is still possible to weaken it by completely erasing @1 first strike ability vs plane.

Do you think it can change the game positively if introduce?
Or this simplified solution is it still too much Overpowering them?

I’ve just found that Oakshield was going in the same direction than me:

AA guns need to be re-thought, and moved closer towards general combat - that’s the direction followed by being able to take them as casualties. Next should be no preemptive strike, no ‘one shot then forget’, no strange maths on how many units can be hit, no in-built AA, no separate rolls for facility.

I can see the AA as attack 0, defense 1, fires every round, only kills air units as a 4 IPC unit, since it skips the order of battle and gets to destroy 10+ IPC units.
After that, it’s all about how many AA guns you want to stack. A bombing run on Wake isn’t the same as one on Berlin.

A single shot per AA might seem weak for the one-round combat of SBR. However, in real life interceptors were the ones doing the job of killing bombers, on a 1/10 ratio to AA.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149&start=144**_

@crusaderiv:

AA guns =  @1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
 D1 on being attacked.
 Cost 5

Bingo. A simple rule.
Exception…German can used AA gun as 88 gun. Player can choose to destroy tank or plane but no both.
(If choose the tank, AA gun can roll each turn).
You can add something similar to the UK player. Bophor gun.
Against plane or infantry. Same rule…

Don’t know if it is a simple rule, or
if this unit once clearly defined will be much more popular,
but the formulation isn’t simple and need much more clarifications.
Please bring up more explanations on this 5 IPCs AAA.

In addition, this imply that you keep the OOB move 1 on NCM only, and AAA move by transport will be as slow as they were.

Does AAA have hit as regular combat unit or not?

Here is the different values and ability brought up to enhance the popularity of AAA guns which I think can make a balance unit:

Lowering cost: 5, 4 or 3 IPCs. (2 was too unbalancing IMHO)

Varying the number of planes targeted: 1, 2, 3, 4, unlimited.
Allowing fire on planes first round only, or every round.
Allowing up to the max of 1 roll per plane…
Or just 1 hit per each AAA as a regular unit.

Allowing or not preemptive strike: first round, every round, none.
On planes only, and on Tank or Ground units.

Making it Anti-tank gun in addition (when no plane is present): target 1 or 3 Tank, on first round.

Adding a regular firing (when no plane) or after first round: A0D1, or even A1D1.

Allowing regular Move, not just NCM.
Making 2 AAAs units able to load on a single transport.

I think it summarize all the abilities. Did I forget something?

@Baron:

Here is the different values and ability brought up to enhance the popularity of AAA guns which I think can make a balance unit:

Lowering cost: 5, 4 or 3 IPCs. (2 was too unbalancing IMHO)

Varying the number of planes targeted: 1, 2, 3, 4, unlimited.
Allowing fire on planes first round only, or every round.
Allowing up to the max of 1 roll per plane…
Or just 1 hit per each AAA as a regular unit.

Allowing or not preemptive strike: first round, every round, none.
On planes only, and on Tank or Ground units.

Making it Anti-tank gun in addition (when no plane is present): target 1 or 3 Tank, on first round.

Adding a regular firing (when no plane) or after first round: A0D1, or even A1D1.

Allowing regular Move, not just NCM.
Making 2 AAAs units able to load on a single transport.

I think it summarize all the abilities. Did I forget something?

Based on all this above, here the interesting (from my perspective) combination of AAA gun developed here and elsewhere:

As a reference OOB:
A0D0C5 NCM1, 1 hit but auto-destroy if alone vs ground units,
preemptive targeting @1 up to 3 planes per AAA, whichever is less.

a) OOB Cost 4
b) OOB Cost 3

c) OOB Cost 5, up to 4 planes
d) OOB Cost 4, up to 4 planes
e) OOB Cost 3, up to 2 planes

f) OOB Cost 5, A0D1 when no plane or after first round. But regular 1 hit.
g) OOB Cost 5, A1D1M1 can attack and defend reg., regular 1 hit.

h) OOB, target preemptive @1 up to 3 tank per AAA, whichever is less.
I) OOB, target 1 tank preemptive @1.

J) OOB Classic, undestructible, @1 vs all planes, no hit, capturable.
k) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs 1 tank.
l) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs all tank.
m) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs all ground units.
n) OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs 1 ground units.
o) J to n with A0D1

p) A0D1 cost 3, M1 on CM or NCM but cannot attack (it is for faster transport move), 1 hit as reg unit, preemptive @1 target up to 2 planes: 1 roll per plane max, reg D1 after (or if no plane)
q)  A0D1 cost 3, NCM1, 1 hit as reg unit, each round can target 1 plane @1: 1 roll per plane per round max, reg D1 if no plane. Transport can hold 2 AAAs.

@crusaderiv:

AA guns =
@1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
D1 on being attacked.
Cost 5

Bingo. A simple rule.
Exception…German can used AA gun as 88 gun. Player can choose to destroy tank or plane but no both.
(If choose the tank, AA gun can roll each turn).
You can add something similar to the UK player. Bophor gun.
Against plane or infantry. Same rule…

As far as I understand you meant (see n version, on last post), each AAA is:
OOB A0D0, preemptive @1 vs all planes, or preemptive @1 vs 1 ground unit.

**with A0D1 for all other rounds after first?

1 hit value as OOB (auto-destroy if only AAA)?
Or as a regular unit (Can defend the territory when there is only AAA)?**

However, there is a real problem with 5 IPCs classic style AA gun:
If you can target all planes over a territory, why bother to buy more than one?
I’m not sure it will really increase the number of AAA bought.

If you add a preemptive Anti-Tank or Anti-ground units, maybe it will be more popular but probably because it becomes near too powerful.

I will also add that making AAA preemptive Anti-ground units in addition to Anti-Tank, is too much and doesn’t seems very historical (real Artillery Guns have greater range) and affect the dynamics of the game.

Preemptive Anti-Tank could make sense from an historical POV because, for example German Flak 41 88MM was used like this during Africa’s campaign by Rommel.

During the North African campaign, Rommel made the most effective use of the weapon, as he lured tanks of the British 8th Army into traps by baiting them with apparently retreating German panzers. One example of this tactic was the battle of Faid, where Rommel hid and camouflaged many Flak 88s in cactus filled areas, inexperienced U.S tankers and commanders rushed into a valley at Faid only to be completely obliterated, losses were most, if not all U.S tanks to zero Flak 88s. When the enemy tanks pursued, concealed 88s picked them off at ranges far beyond those of their 2-pdr and 6-pdr guns. A mere two flak battalions destroyed 264 tanks throughout 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Flak_41#Support_of_German_ground_troops

I think, that for balance, if you could do either preemptive Anti-Air or Anti-Tank with 1 AAA units, then it shouldn’t get any other capacity after first round.

Keep the same AAA A0D0C5NCM1, 1 hit, preemptive @1 for up to three units per AAA (whichever is lower: max 1 roll/plane or tank), either Planes or Tanks, not both (defender choice, no obligation to hit aircraft first), seems simpler.

In the perspective of a more powerful AAA able to roll every round,
maybe let’s the plane and Tank have a specific attack capacity like this:
Any attacking Aircraft on “1” roll can choose an AAA as casualty.
Any attacking Tank on “1” roll can choose an AAA as casualty.

@Zombie69:

AAA are pretty good at what they do as is, i.e. take a shot at 3 planes then get taken as the first hit in order to keep an INF alive and fighting. You could theoretically drop them all the way to 3 IPC (no lower), but whatever you do, don’t allow them to fire past the opening shots.

Do you mean fire at planes after first combat round? If not, I’d like to see your reason why.

Because making it a regular unit A0 D1 M1 in NCM after first combat round is no big deal from a balance POV, IMO.
In this case, the attacker choose any casualties as he wish. And it is half defense value than a regular Infantry.
In big fight, sooner than later AAA unit will be chosen as casualty.

@Zombie69:

Yes, I do mean firing at planes. Letting them fire normally (opponent chooses) after the opening salve wouldn’t change anything. In fact, it’s not even worth adding to the mix before it practically makes no difference at all. If my AAA defended at 1 after the opening salve, I would still take it as my first loss just like I do now (before any infantry), so they would rarely, if ever, get to use that ability anyway.

In some circumstances, when attacker is just straffing a territory, or gets poor dices on the first combat rounds, if the defender think he could win (or the attacker will retreat) without loosing more precious units (like artillery or tank) it is a real dilemma when the AAA worth 5 IPCs. The replacement cost is higher than for a single infantry. So, putting it at regular D1 is a kind of consolation price and for keeping uniformity amongst grounds units. A single regular roll @1 is still a chance to hit something, even if it is low. It is still better than actual OOB nothing.

If someone wants to keep the dilemma about replacement cost, then this means that AAA should be higher than Infantry. So putting AAA at 4 IPCs working as a regular unit after the initial combat round is the lower we can drop.

At 3 IPCs, unless being far away from IC (wanting to keep them near front lines), it would always be better to take it amongst first losses and buy a new one.

So, I partly agree with you, for an AAA A0 D0* NCM1 C3 (@1 against up to 2 planes whichever the lesser) there is no big needs to make it D1.
But there is still the case when no plane are on the attacker sides, at least letting them roll a regular D1 is a way to not make it a complete waste for the defender.
That’s why I think AAA A0 D1 NCM1 C3 is probably the way to create an incentive for buying this unit.

Cheaper, always active on defense, less effective than the OOB AAA against 3 planes (which means players will need to buy more for defense.)

@Zombie69:

Well, I disagree. AAA are supposed to defend against planes, period. It’s an interesting tactical decision whether or not to place them on the front line, based on whether you think planes will be attacking you. Making them defend against everything just makes them less interesting and more like standard units, which would be a shame. If you think they’re too weak, make them cost less (no lower than 3) and/or defend against more planes.

Exactly, the idea is to simplify the way AAA works. No need to have a zero defense. It is a gameplay orientation first.

But, there is also an historical way of seeing AAA units as a mobile Antiaircraft division.

The new sculpt is no more like the old one which was meant to protect both IC and ground units in a territory.
The in-built AA gun on IC is strictly a fixed and armored position.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Bofors_M1927_76mm_AA_gun_Suomenlinna.JPG/800px-Bofors_M1927_76mm_AA_gun_Suomenlinna.JPG

The new AAA unit is more intended to be mobile and to follow other grounds units on the move to provide some protection against aircrafts.
Just take a look at those various pictures of Bofor guns to get an idea of the variability of such weapon.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=bofor+40mm&hl=fr&rlz=1T4SAVT_frCA579CA582&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lD69U_ysOseYyASyw4DICw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1344&bih=697#hl=fr&q=bofor+gun&tbm=isch

Or the numerous use of the German’s Flak 88 against Infantry and Tank:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=bofor+40mm&hl=fr&rlz=1T4SAVT_frCA579CA582&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lD69U_ysOseYyASyw4DICw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1344&bih=697#hl=fr&q=88+flak&tbm=isch

I was looking for a thread on AA guns which provides pictures about three different types. I cannot find it for now.
But here is the beginning of the exchange which get me change my mind on AAA:
@Uncrustable:

Omw
I’m sure glad you 2 are not the game developers lol

I imagine the mech inf represents a mechanized division
Distinct from an infantry or armored division
I believe USA calls it an armored Calvalry division however

A division is a large military unit (10000-30000 soldiers) capable of independent operations due to it’s self sustaining role and it’s range of combat personal and suitable combat support forces
Infantry division
Mechanized division (armored Calvalry)
Armored division
Artillery division
**Anti aircraft division

Capable of independent operations
Due to…combat support forces**
An anti aircraft division does not need to be towed around by a mechanized division lol
It’s perfectly capable of moving itself

Here is an AAA units at the opposite of the Spectrum (there is some posts in this thread about AAA topics):
@Uncrustable:

2. Enhanced AAA. AAA now acts as a normal unit outside of AA rolls. They no longer are restricted to non combat moves and attack/defend at 1/1. No changes to AA rolls. AA rolls are defense only (# of dice rolled does not change from OOB) AAA price remains OOB.

About boosting AAA strength against plane, it will go in the opposite way as expected. Instead of providing an incentive, it will be less needed.

Example: If you allow an AAA to fire against up to 4 planes, you will need 2 AAA against 8 planes while it will require 3 OOB AAA to get the cover against same number of planes.