Whose boss in the sea?

@Afrika:

…

360 IPC 10 CV 20 FTR
30+80=110

360 IPC 36 FTR
108

So CVs come out slightly ahead, and can protect convoys, unlike FTR only forces.

One can not neglect the fact that the attacking fighters outnumber the fully loaded CVs. The attacking fighter force can take 6 more hits. Since the cheapest unit in such a combat is a fighter, these 6 extra hits will count more than just an extra 2/6 chance of hitting an enemy unit. The slightly better odds for the the fully loaded CVs is for the first cycle of combat only!

1 cycle of combat

casualties inflicted by CVs: 110/6 = 18,33 (count it as 19)
casualties inflicted by Ftr: 108/6 = 18

2 cycle of combat

casualties inflicted by CVs (12 ftr): 48/6 = 8
casualties inflicted by Ftr (17 ftr): 108/6 = 8,5 (count it as 8 )

3 cycle of combat

casualties inflicted by CVs (4 ftr): 12/6 = 2
casualties inflicted by Ftr (9 ftr): 27/6 = 4,5 (count it as 4)

Fighters will win that combat according to the statistics above, even when it is biased to the CVs favour (i.e. 8,5 hits for Ftrs count as 8 but 18,33 hit for CVs count as 19 hits). The attacking force of Ftr only will come out ahead of any CV combos. And that is not slightly ahead! :wink: :wink: :wink:

This only show that the cruiser unit is a desirable new unit to the game. Cruisers are not necessary, but that piece would bring more balance to the game and at the same time make a realistic use.

This only show that the cruiser unit is a desirable new unit to the game. Cruisers are not necessary, but that piece would bring more balance to the game and at the same time make a realistic use.

And i remember the time when somebody said that “we dont need more units” and wanted to change the game with the existing pieces… hmmm this is a good trend. Now we still need to iron out the need for a Mechanized Infantry (armored infantry/panzer grenadiers).

@Imperious:

And i remember the time when somebody said that “we dont need more units” and wanted to change the game with the existing pieces… hmmm this is a good trend. Now we still need to iron out the need for a Mechanized Infantry (armored infantry/panzer grenadiers).

What I do here is to add the cruiser unit as an optional rule, that is the most important. I dont think the new cruiser unit will mess up the game board like any kind of land unit would do. And most people can use the BB piece from the A&A classic! Impy I think you are too advaced in most of your ideas, but they are basically very fine. I try to make such ideas more simple, just to make them easier to digest for the majority of A&A players.

Yes yes i see your value of what you offer. I am saying to include these items under the “optional rules” section. That is all. I should have mentioned it before. I too dont want people to stop drinking beer while playing the game…

Hey Afrika Korps, you was fast enough to regret your reply that you just wrote about the 760 IPCs scenario (10 AC + 20 Ftr + 50 TP against 76 Ftr). You realized your statistics was wrong once again. Your math were wrong in the second round were you said that there were only 38 Ftr left of the initial 76 Ftr. It is actually 49 Ftr left, risk adjusted! So what do you think about the optional rule of Cruisers?

:oops: You are indeed correct about tactical scenarios, (except with SSs of course).

However, I think that the rule of cruisers would be very much too slanted against Germany. Also, navies are more than enough balanced because without a navy, you can’t protect your convoys. If UK builds 3 fighters per turn, for example, it will die. As it is now, I find that it may be tactically fighters are more efficient per IPC, but if you make fighters and no navy you will not have those IPCs much longer. Also, navies can strike a coastal area before it can be attacked by enemy fighters.

@Afrika:

:oops: You are indeed correct about tactical scenarios, (except with SSs of course).

However, I think that the rule of cruisers would be very much too slanted against Germany. Also, navies are more than enough balanced because without a navy, you can’t protect your convoys. If UK builds 3 fighters per turn, for example, it will die. As it is now, I find that it may be tactically fighters are more efficient per IPC, but if you make fighters and no navy you will not have those IPCs much longer. Also, navies can strike a coastal area before it can be attacked by enemy fighters.

What convoys are you talking about? I am talking about A&AR, not A&AE or A&AP. The only time one need is a navy is when one want to invade US, UK or Japan. So if one want to defend it is much better to buy ftr that can be used for ground attacks as well, and when time comes that a fleet is close enough. Then one just use all those ftr in a swarm to take out the navy!

Its not about UK build 3 ftr per turn, but ftr instead of naval units and ICs instead of TPs! That is a better strategy since a ftr can be used in land combat as well and have a movement of 4. And remeber that these ftr are much better in defens as well, so your phrase “if you make fighters and no navy you will not have those IPCs much longer. Also, navies can strike a coastal area before it can be attacked by enemy fighters.” is as wrong as it could be. Ftr can reach the navy before the navy can reach the ftr! Imagine if one develop LRA, even if it cost some 30 IPCs!

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the need to move units across the sea zones.

@B.:

The only time one need is a navy is when one want to invade US, UK or Japan.

US needs a navy to take over German provinces. UK needs a navy to land in Europe. If aiding Russia, the UK will need a navy for that as well.

Where would you suggest UK’s IC be placed? At most you could only make 3 units a turn.

UK needs a navy to take back and/or defend its colonies.

@B.:

So if one want to defend it is much better to buy ftr that can be used for ground attacks as well, and when time comes that a fleet is close enough. Then one just use all those ftr in a swarm to take out the navy!

A navy can attack a province before they are in range of fighters. Fighters attack 2 squares away but have to be in the sea zone they are attacking, whereas navies move two and land in the coastal area without using an additional move.

@Afrika:

. . .
A navy can attack a province before they are in range of fighters. Fighters attack 2 squares away but have to be in the sea zone they are attacking, whereas navies move two and land in the coastal area without using an additional move.

That is correct, and I was wrong! What we lerned from this is that it is not just time consuming to build a navy and move across the oceans, a navy is also costinefficient compared to a flotilla of fighters. But as you said, a navy can attack (amphibious assault) a land territory before the ftr are in range of fighters. But that does not matter if the navy cannot conduct shore bombardment. And remember that defending fighters are even harder to crack. My suggestion is that all destroyers should be able to make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Get rid of the technology Combined Bombardment and replace it with Heavy Artillery (art attack on 3). Moreover the optional unit, cruisers, would make it even more balanced.

Cruisers

Description: Multipurpose ships that can fire on incoming enemy planes and conduct shore bombardment.

(One can use the battleships from A&A Classic as cruisers.)

Cost: 15
Attack: 3
Defense: 3 (Opening fire against attacking aircraft)
Move: 2

Special Abilities
Shoot Down Air Units: Whenever an air unit enters a sea zone containing an enemy cruiser, the cruiser fires during the Conduct Opening Fire step of combat. Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but only one cruiser in a sea zone can fire during the opening fire step, even if they are controlled by different powers). For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed. This opening fire capability is for the first cycle of combat only and does not cancel the regular roll during the Defending Units Fire step.

Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your cruisers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each cruiser fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A cruiser cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.

Carriers are the major unit in a fleet
The aircraft carrier emerged after World War I as an experimentally modified cruiser. The first aircraft carrier built (1925) from the keel up as an aircraft carrier for the U.S. navy was the U.S.S. Saratoga. The aircraft carrier remained an experimental and untested war vessel until World War II, when the Japanese destroyed or drove out of the East Asian waters the British, Dutch, and U.S. navies with carrier-borne aircraft. By 1942 the aircraft carrier had replaced the battleship as the major unit in a modern fleet, and in World War II it was indispensable in naval operations against a sea- or land-based enemy.