Real value of units

I want to address some of your points.

First of all, the vast majority of the A&A community agrees, that the axis are stronger in G40. Most even think, they have a very big advantage.
Personally, I think they have an advantage, but it’s not bigger than a 12bid or so.

What I wanted to say is, that Japan HAS to build ships, in order not to be destroyed. The starting fleet will not suffice. And there are transports necessary as well. Of course there is more than just one viable strategy, but if you don’t want an all-out on Moscow+Egypt, with Japan only supporting Germany, you need to buy ships to secure and hold DEI+Philipp (or at least able to recapture them). This is where your money is!

It is possible, to invest 100% of the US income in the pacific, for the first 4-5 rounds, maybe even until US6, without losing the European theater. You need to adapt to mistakes and bad luck of course, but generally speaking, it is possible. With this heavy investment, the combined allied forces will remove Japan from the game, so you can spend the remaining turns all for Germany (Anzac could possibly build bombers every round, or fighters to defend Egypt).

The contrary, however, investing all in europe for the first 4-5 turns as USA, is not possible. Japan will snowball heavily since it can take out China and India one after another, even without big casualties. anzac/hawaii is next. A pacific win is very fast achieved if us doesn’t build in pac.

Yes, that a lot of people think the Axis have the advantage is clear to me ;-).

It depends on what that means, of course, ‘having the advantage’. If that means the allies will loose the game most of the time unless they play with a 12-ish bid, I simply have to disagree from personal experience.
Maybe I need to point out that we mainly use that LL-system because we were sick and tired of those turn 1 battles screwed by the dice so badly that the game was already lost or won right there.
None of us wants to continue a day long game (or even longer) that is already lost to the dice in turn1. The only reason we play with all the dice sometimes is to please some of the players who seem to play on luck and have no clue as to what it means to Axis victory if Germany looses a third (or more) of its luftwaffe in turn1 battles over the atlantic… :-o

I agree 100% with your point on Japan’s need to build ships.

About USA going all in Europe we can probably debate for hours without end  8-). I know it can work and I also know that Japan can exploit it to win in the Pac but its response is rather narrow and heavily prone to mistakes.

Edit: By the way, maybe we should move our discussion towards another thread, that “Axis advantage is bigger than you think” one, seems more fitting.

Japan’s true strenght is their insane number of airplanes (21). They dont need to buy more than a small number of carriers and destroyers to stop the american fleet.

Agreed.

Don’t let that intimidate you into thinking they are unbeatable.
I remember defeating a Japanese fleet US10 consisting of 11CV, 2BB, 2CA, 10DD, 2sub. I don’t remember the exact US fleetcomposition but it involved a lot of submarines. I believe I built an extra 3 submarines for every carrier I saw the Japanese construct.

Subs are an excellent counter to large CV-fleets as they only hit ships. Soon all enemy ships are no more and you can retreat if the carrierplanes have nowhere to land or continue fighting if you please (or must). Whatever suits your needs.

Subs are a double edged sword for the Allied Pacific fleet. They can work wonders on attack, however they can’t defend a fleet against an air-heavy enemy.

Japan can block a sub fleet with destroyers if necessary, but there’s no way to block Japan’s planes. If I see sub-heavy Allied builds in the Pacific, I typically counter by buying even more planes for Japan.

:-D You are right sir!

You have a counter for a counter. Now what would be the counter for that counter-counter ;-)?

With 2 players playing the war in the pacific really on the edge of a knife, I guess this is what you will get; one building a counter for what the other one built, the other one responding next turn with a counter to that and so on.

Of course, Japan is more limited in this as time is ticking, working against it. It also has builds to consider with which it can actually capture VCs before it is too late.

Mr Roboto.

Axis Global is like chess. If someone suggests a grand strategy as being superior, that doesn’t mean the suggestion is to do it regardless of what the other side is doing.

The point is and will always be that the least efficient strategy is for either Japan and the US to go dramatically on the offensive, (not all out-just spending a majority of their resources) in the Pacific because of the unrealistic resources demanded to build a Navy, and for those resources, the rewards attained are only a fraction of the rewards attainable if those same resources were spent on Asia for Japan and Europe for the US.

That doesn’t mean that if the US foolishly goes 100% on the offensive in the Pacific, Japan should just run and hide its Navy. It merely needs to play a defensive, much less costly naval war, holding of the US while it achieves the most important Asian objectives, UK Pacific and China.

Same for the US, if the Japan goes all out, (foolishly) against the US, the US is best served by playing defensively, only holding them off, while most of its resources are focused on Europe.

This is because Navy’s are still unrealistically expensive compared to the ground units.

This is of course with the caveat that you are not playing with the horrid, unrealistic, foolish NO of Japan winning to whole freaking game with only 6 VC’s. The stupidest rule axis ever came up with.

@eddiem4145:

Mr Roboto.

Axis Global is like chess. If someone suggests a grand strategy as being superior, that doesn’t mean the suggestion is to do it regardless of what the other side is doing.

I am fully aware of that, and I don’t really know why you are pointing it out to me.

@eddiem4145:

This is of course with the caveat that you are not playing with the horrid, unrealistic, foolish NO of Japan winning to whole freaking game with only 6 VC’s. The stupidest rule axis ever came up with.

Well I agree with the Victory-City problem in Global, but since the League here plays WITH this rule (and other leagues like the one at tripleawarclub as well)……

Once again, I am trying to specify what I meant. I am just saying, that Japan cannot afford to lose it’s Navy to the Allied forces. If the US Navy gets so big that it can defeat the Japanese Navy, Japan gets convoyed heavily. Without the IPC from the coastal regions, ANZAC usually gets ahead of Japan. From there on, it’s just a little step with a little more help from USA to liberate Calcutta and/or some Chinese territories/Korea.

Since it IS indeed possible to survive Europe even without any US help for the first few turns, it is a viable strategy (note: viable, not superior or sole or whatever) to spend huge in the Pac to get the bigger Navy as US. If the allied players does exactly that, Japan can only answer by building Navy as well.
The question with that strategy is: How much exactly does USA needs to spend for Navy, and how fast is Germany, until USA needs to shift the main attention to Europe.

I actually agree with eddiem on some of his points about naval costs. I don’t agree with the changes to carriers, aircraft, or transports and here’s why:

1.Sea zones and land territories are just spaces. The only thing that makes them different is that vessels can only fight in water and land units can only fight on land unless a ‘bridging’ vessel like a carrier or transport enables land and air units ‘special’ abilities. You will never see a BB or CA or any other warship fight a land unit by itself if at all. Hence no BB vs. a Tank just because it sailed on by or vice versa.

2.Carriers enable small aircraft to land on the sea making it a special unit and valuable hence no change in cost and is worth it’s value. Transports enable land units to cross oceans and enable some ships to attack land during amphibious assault via bombardment, same thing.

3.Aircraft can attack both on land and sea and have the greatest range of movement/firepower hence they are worth their cost and ability.

4.We have no solid factor statistic about what any unit represents in cost or actual strength in numbers. So it is not unreasonable for a land unit and a naval unit with the same or similar attack and defense stats could have the same cost. Remember without another “bridging” unit they cannot possibly attack or defend against each other hence their cost’s are irrelevant to one another.

5.If everyone pays a lower costs for naval units they balance each other out because the Axis player pays the same price as the Allied player.

6.Transports still cost the same as do all OOB transport rules under my model. So no hordes of blockers or any of the “old” problems of previous editions. Transports become more precious than before. You will want and need to protect them even more, but you’ll also be able to protect them more easily.

7.Carriers remain the same as OOB stats. they will perform their intended role and become more valuable.

8.Aircraft don’t need to be modified as already stated above and by other posters.

This is just my two cents. Hopefully people will see what I’m talking about. While it seems strange really think about it. Are you ever going to see a Cruiser and Tank duke it out over a SZ after it drove off into the Med or swam into the Channel? Or a Battleship ever jump out of the water and take over an island?

Edit-
Side note: While I do agree with many points posted I’m not lobbying for an official rule change. I do think that this could be a great variant or house rule. I also have no aspirations of convincing Larry Harris, WOTC, tournament organization…etc. to deviate from any official rules. :-D

With the utmost respect, I don’t understand how your points relate to not lowering the costs of transports, carriers, or aircraft.

Assuming you support the idea of lowering the cost to build a navy in general to encourage building them without the need for silly national objectives; if you only lower the costs of subs, destroyers, cruisers, and battleships, then the cost of the aircraft carrier and aircraft combination is now out of whack causing them to lose the dominance they are suppose to have.

Making transports cost $7 and having no defensive capabilities, made the transportation of materials even more expensive, which had no effect in the Atlantic because the US HAS to go there.

But in the Pacific, raising the cost to transport men and material and MORE SPECIFICALLY, the transports losing there defensive capabilities, made building a Navy to defend the transports, even more expensive, making it even more inefficient for the US to engage the Japanese.

So then that forced the stupid Japan 6 VC rule, to force the US to spend its resources inefficiently.

I agree with you that the old idea of building only a few ships and a boatload of transports was not fun, EVEN THOUGH, technically, in the old transport rule, a transport represented the transport ships, the landing craft, and escorts.

What’s the difference, spend 24 IPC’s for 3 transports that defend at 1 with the old rule, or spend 24 IPC’s for 2 destroyers that defend at 2 with the same 3 transports with the same rule. This would assume two destroyers would cost 6 IPC’s and transports would cost $4 IPC’s.

Bombers should cost 13, cruisers 11.
Other than that i think the current system works well overall. It promotes sea battles both large and small and encourages the use of warships to protect transports rather than the other way around. It also widens the gap between good and average players, as mistakes involving defenseless transports, and overspending or under spending on the sea often can be fatal.

Transporting men across the ocean and in turn protecting those transports is supposed to be inefficient, it was inefficient, but it must be done.
In the end land is where the money is, warships exist purely to protect/kill/block transports that move men from land to land across water.
Warships serve a severely diminished role with the old transport rules, and in fact much less money is spent on warships, taking away from a dimension of the game.

It is difficult to find the balance of naval purchases with defenseless transports, and the better player will become evident.

However, as inefficient as your navy might seem, its still better (most of the time) than investing in, 12-30 IPC, industrial complexes that cannot move, and can be SBRd.

In summation the defenseless transport adds depth and entertainment to the game, increases the gap between casual and pro players, and appeals to casual players common sense (transports are not warships)
Everybody wins (except grandpa of course)

@eddiem4145:

With the utmost respect, I don’t understand how your points relate to not lowering the costs of transports, carriers, or aircraft.

Assuming you support the idea of lowering the cost to build a navy in general to encourage building them without the need for silly national objectives; if you only lower the costs of subs, destroyers, cruisers, and battleships, then the cost of the aircraft carrier and aircraft combination is now out of whack causing them to lose the dominance they are suppose to have.

Making transports cost $7 and having no defensive capabilities, made the transportation of materials even more expensive, which had no effect in the Atlantic because the US HAS to go there.
I
But in the Pacific, raising the cost to transport men and material and MORE SPECIFICALLY, the transports losing there defensive capabilities, made building a Navy to defend the transports, even more expensive, making it even more inefficient for the US to engage the Japanese.

So then that forced the stupid Japan 6 VC rule, to force the US to spend its resources inefficiently.

I agree with you that the old idea of building only a few ships and a boatload of transports was not fun, EVEN THOUGH, technically, in the old transport rule, a transport represented the transport ships, the landing craft, and escorts.

What’s the difference, spend 24 IPC’s for 3 transports that defend at 1 with the old rule, or spend 24 IPC’s for 2 destroyers that defend at 2 with the same 3 transports with the same rule. This would assume two destroyers would cost 6 IPC’s and transports would cost $4 IPC’s.

Eddie please re-read my post and you will see why. Please also stop quoting as a supporter of making permenant naval changes to the game. I am suggesting that you might have some valid points I am not advocating some big change to the game. I support using house rules or variants not campaigning or lobbying WOTC and Larry Harris.

Uncrustable,

Being that I have and continue to argue that all Naval units are too expensive, I would of course completely disagree with raising the cost of any Naval units, even one. However, I don’t really disagree with most of your points.

However, the main reason for this reduction is the problem of the Pacific. The only reason the current system promotes sea battles both large and small and encourages the use of warships in the Pacific is because of the atrocious Japan 6VC rule. Without it, the Pacific would be a wasteland.

I don’t disagree with the idea of defenses transports, I disagree with making them defenseless and keeping them at the same high cost.

Without the Japan 6VC NO, you have to make the resources necessary to build a Navy and transports in the Pacific comparable to the rewards that can be achieved.

Overall, I don’t disagree with most of what you said. But that Japan 6VC rules has to go.

Toblerone,

For the record I have played decades with lowering the cost of Navy’s with as many as 20 different players over and over again. Nothing as dramatic though as what I am suggesting now. As you might know, Navy’s have in fact been lowered over the decades, just not enough in my view. Remember the $24 one hit battles ship, $16 one hit AC, $12 planes with the richest nation, the USA making only $36 a turn, $32 once they lost China. One Battleship and one transport took the USA’s entire income. Which was why the Pacific was always a wasteland.

In my current games with Global, Japan and the US start with the tech, “Improved Shipyards”. These days I only play the board game with my son as most of my old players now have families, careers and have moved away. But we will soon begin playing with the more dramatic lowered Naval costs as I have found that even with the improved shipyards, it is not enough.

Unfortunately, one full Global game takes weeks for us to finish.

Eddiem,
I’m not trying to be rude and actually see what you’re talking about. What I’m saying is that most people like things just the way they are. Asking for people to join a petition,  campaign or saying its the best way will pretty much go over like a lead balloon and frankly just pisses people off.

I too have been playing since Classic. I have every edition except the really, really, old Nova games edition, Guadal Canal and Europe 1940 1st edition from 2010. Luckily I swooped up the second editons and a first edition Pac 40. That’s all beside the point.

You can have ideas and share them and people may like them or not. I’d recommend playing them through and posting in House Rules or Axis & Allies Variants.  Even then there’s still people who are going to get uptight about that. There’s even people who b-itch about HBG units even though they don’t have to have anything to do with them let alone buy them.

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion.  That’s what the forum is but if you come on strong with an opinion that everbody needs to play thier game a certain way it won’t go over well. Most players here are tourny, league or TripleA players and for the most part play strict games by the book. If you go around telling them “hey everybody we need to tell Larry to change the game” lol people don’t like it.

I personally like the historical, house rules, and customization forums. You ahould try pitching some of your ideas there. I’m sure they’d be welcomed.

Personally I’m not a TripleA/play by forum guy. There are a few of us who aren’t. I’m honaestly not trying to be rude but some sections of the forum just aren’t the best place to post radical ideas or house rules.

BTW welcome to axisandallies.org!

Well, I see your point about coming on to strong. I also have to admit that I have been responding too to many posts at once and get confused about the purpose of that post.

I have also been arguing the same points with the “Cheesiest thing about Global” post someone else started. So being the 6VC victory thing to me is the cheesiest, it opened up my argument about Naval costs and that argument has bleed to this post.

Anyways I appreciate your comments.

@eddiem4145:

Uncrustable,

Being that I have and continue to argue that all Naval units are too expensive, I would of course completely disagree with raising the cost of any Naval units, even one. However, I don’t really disagree with most of your points.

However, the main reason for this reduction is the problem of the Pacific. The only reason the current system promotes sea battles both large and small and encourages the use of warships in the Pacific is because of the atrocious Japan 6VC rule. Without it, the Pacific would be a wasteland.

I don’t disagree with the idea of defenses transports, I disagree with making them defenseless and keeping them at the same high cost.

Without the Japan 6VC NO, you have to make the resources necessary to build a Navy and transports in the Pacific comparable to the rewards that can be achieved.

Overall, I don’t disagree with most of what you said. But that Japan 6VC rules has to go.

Well the only price change i suggested was a decrease, (-1 cruiser) nowhere in my post do i suggest any price increases to navy. I am in favor of an increase to strat bombers however (+1)

Secondly transports are not at the same high cost. They were reduced by 1.

Third, i assume you only want to reduce the price of transports in global? Either way you do realize that the benefit goes to the axis as sealion is now unstoppable again and the entire game has to be rebalanced. Again. Alpha+1.3.7 all over again. Again.

lastly, i gather that you imply increasing the number of VCs that Japan must attain for victory would cause the US to abandon the pacific in favor of a KGF strategy? If that is the case then i couldnt disagree more. Germany is not only in a better position to defend itself from allied assaults, but giving Japan free reign in the pacific is going to cause 1 of 2 things. 1, Japan crush India on the way to the middle east and egypt. 2, Japan dow russia turn 1 and pushes for Moscow, while delaying UK and ANZAC. Japan can do more damage i believe in the early stages if left unchecked. USA is the check.

I also do not hear many on here complaining about the pacific vc rules, you seem to be in the minority? Maybe i have been under a rock idk…

Secondly transports are not at the same high cost. They were reduced by 1

Taking away their defensive ability, but only reducing the cost by one, is actually raising their cost, as the cost of man and material is more expensive. I posted something before about transports in the past actually representing the actual transport ships, landing craft, and escorts. Not going to post it again and others have. But if you didn’t like the image of a naval Army of almost pure transports, AND I ALSO DID NOT, then the answer would have been reducing their cost, since they are now defensive, which would then require more purchases of Naval units to defend them. It would have been a wash.

Third, i assume you only want to reduce the price of transports in global? Either way you do realize that the benefit goes to the axis as sealion is now unstoppable again and the entire game has to be rebalanced. Again. Alpha+1.3.7 all over again. Again.

Others have argued this and I have seen arguments that say this isn’t the case at all. In the case where British resources to stop it would overly hurt it in Africa, I would agree that any drastic changes like I have suggested might have to be reserved for a new edition, but I don’t think much change would be required.

lastly, i gather that you imply increasing the number of VCs that Japan must attain for victory would cause the US to abandon the pacific in favor of a KGF strategy? If that is the case then i couldnt disagree more. Germany is not only in a better position to defend itself from allied assaults, but giving Japan free reign in the pacific is going to cause 1 of 2 things. 1, Japan crush India on the way to the middle east and egypt. 2, Japan dow russia turn 1 and pushes for Moscow, while delaying UK and ANZAC. Japan can do more damage i believe in the early stages if left unchecked. USA is the check.

I usually have to put the caveat, that just because I believe going on the offensive in the Pacific, or all out in the Pacific is foolish does not mean that I support completely ignoring it no matter what your opponent is doing. My point is, and if you are aware of the History of axis games you would know this, the 6VC victory was designed, as well as some of the other Pacific NO’s, to force action in the Pacific. In the original, it took the entire USA’s income for a turn to buy a “one hit battleship” and one transport. They could even buy one Carrier, one plane, and one transport. My point was instead of coming up with all these NO’s, some of which seem unrealistic, they should have just reduced the cost of Navy’s more or a combination of both.

I also do not hear many on here complaining about the pacific vc rules, you seem to be in the minority? Maybe i have been under a rock idk…
Look up the post of the “Chessiest things about Global”. It has been argued better by others better. All Japan has to do is take Hawaii for one turn. All other VC’s are considered automatic for Japan. Then the whole game is won regardless of how Europe is doing. This makes the US spend to many resources in the Pacific to stop the risk of that happening.

Not interested in arguing that point on this post as I believe I have taken the point of this post on a tangent.

@Uncrustable:

I also do not hear many on here complaining about the pacific vc rules, you seem to be in the minority? Maybe i have been under a rock idk…

You probably have, since that is basically the most hated rule at the moment. At least there is no other rule that so many agree on being silly.

This rule alone nullifies the option of ignoring Japan for the first 3-4 turns. It is just not possible to win when USA spends nothing in the first 3 rounds in the PAC.

I don’t think there is anything that can be done about adding or removing VCs in any league or tournament.  It’s too hard coded in the rules.

Personally, I would say the axis need at least one REAL capitol to win - regardless of how many VCs they have - as well as their actual total.  That would be one of: Moscow, Washington DC or London.

I might throw in Sydney or Los Angeles (more the latter than the former) as a “capitol.”  I just don’t see the United States saying “oh fine, sure, you win…we surrender.  We produce 35% of the global gross domestic product, but you managed to get Egypt in a lucky strike on April the 3rd, 1947 so you win.”  Ya know?

Just me, I know…