Scramble vs. Carrier question

@Cmdr:

@Gargantua:

What’s funny, is that after retreating your carrier and transports, without the troops on the ground going into Novgorod… the planes you committed there will most likely die an untimely death.

Hahaha :D

Good move by the Russians!

Correct.  I did something similar once.  He attacked with 7 loaded transports and no defensive ships.  I scrambled 1 fighter and sunk all the loaded transports.

Yeah this should not have happened, unless there was somehow no place for his trns to retreat to. Attacking transports are seldom defenseless, they actually have to be hit unless they cannot retreat from the battle.

They have to physically retreat.  They loaded in SZ 127 (from Finland) and attempted to land in Novgorod.  There was an American destroyer in SZ 125.  He would have been safe (he had some fighters in Finland and he had purchased an AB there) but he amphibioused without fighter cover (they went for the attack.)  So yes, all transports and their cargo were lost at sea.

The same thing happened to me in the Philippines, with my loaded Japanese transports and an aircraft carrier, we all agreed that it was an automatic kill so I removed them from the board. The extra salt in the wound came just a minute ago when this thread told me that I had retreat options for my loaded transports, because the Allies only had 1 fighter to scramble and my carrier would have soaked a hit.

Scrambling is a method of tactics and if a team mate of mine ever warned the opposition that a scramble was possible, I would slap them upside the head. How ridicules would I sound if I were playing chess, and told my opponent that I could reach his queen with my bishop if he moved it there?. The rules say that everyone must look for and point out convoy disruptions… so I do, but it doesn’t say anywhere that I have to warn my opponent of my own scramble opportunities.

I lost all my ships because I messed up, twice if you count the fact that I could have saved my transports by remembering the retreat rules. Thats how I prefer it to go down, because I will never make that mistake again, and my opponents know that I won’t give quarter if they make it, because they to would never forgive an error like that.

I don’t want to hear this crap about… it’s only a game. I know that and I forgive many mistakes in this “game”. but 2 things are unforgivable…

1. Making more combat movements, or changing combat movements after declaring that your phase is done.

2. Trying to make your purchase phase after the resolve combat phase, because you forgot to buy.

All that stuff I talked about scrambling falls into point #1. You declare where the air units from the carrier will fight during the combat movement phase, on land or in the sea zone, it matters due to the scramble opportunity. If you say land and I scramble my plane from a visible air base to sink all your sh!t… than congratulations, you just learned a lesson.

When I screwed up I said, “Ok… my combat movement phase is done, now I’m going to resolve combat. There are no strategic bombing raids, but I have 1 amphibious assault in the Philippines before I proceed with general combat, so I will roll for my infantry…” Thats when my opponent said… “Wait… I want to scramble my plane and destroy all your ships”. He didn’t say… “Just so you know… I’m about to scramble my plane and destroy your ships, unless you want to take a few minutes and redo your entire combat movement phase”

Homy don’t play dat.

I partially agree with you YG.

In a league or tournament game, I agree with you whole heartedly.  If you forget to walk into a territory or make a necessary combat move before throwing the dice, then you’re screwed and I don’t want to hear about it.  Sorry, it’s a game for credit and you should know better before getting into the pool with the big boys and girl.

If it is a game for fun, then I disagree with you.  This is a game for fun, players may be learning, or have a strong relationship with each other.  For instance, if Emperor Mollari (as he was known here) had forgotten to attack S. Ukraine - which was undefended at the time - before throwing dice, or hell, even as he was placing units; then I would have been okay with allowing the move.  Same in reverse, he was never one to stick it too you just because it was the rules (except in league or tournament, as it should be there!)

What I have come to realize over the years is this:  When you are playing this game for fun, the rules are precisely what you agree they are.  I’ve played many a game where someone buys before moving at all, or even when I played my brother, he would ROUTINELY purchase his units before my turn was even over (he didnt put the money in the bank, but he had them out and ready.)  Of course, back then it was an overpowered strategy for the US to buy a battleship every round (Classic) because Japan (which never got more than 23-30 IPC) could not match them.  We didnt know better, and hell, we got the rules wrong (but they were agreed on!) For instance, we thought a “bridge” with a transport meant unlimited units could use the one transport as long as they started in the same zone and went to the same zone to attack.  (Hey, it was like what, 1990?  1987?  Something like that.)

Point is, For Fun: means (to me) rules can be relaxed, mistakes can be forgiven - if both sides agree.  League/Tournament: rules are set in stone, you have to stick them to your opponent so that the game is the same as all other games - even playing field.

Just my two copper coins.  Take it or leave it.

You can have a game for fun with players of equal skill level, and still hold everyone accountable for their mistakes.

@Young:

You can have a game for fun with players of equal skill level, and still hold everyone accountable for their mistakes.

Yes, but I usually do not choose to do so.  It depends on who I am playing as well.  For me, having a rules nazi (term appropriate in my mind because we’re talking a game of WWII!) in a game for fun, isn’t fun for me.  That is regardless of if I am a stickler for a rules, or they are.

Again, league/tournament is different.  These are more “professional” games, in my mind.  Everyone should be thoroughly versed in the rules - and if you make a mistake, well, then too bad!

how can you deny a big battle that is just silly. if you are going to rules guru someone like that at least give a heads up before something is resolved.

It is like making an ESL kid spell out the card he is calling with meddling mage after a correct pronunciation, that was a messed up magic tournament, kid’s white weenie deck would have owned illusions of grandeur (if he had spellled the card the deck is named after right). that was jacked up. Judge wouldn’t let him change the card he verbally said to donate either, which he was more confident in his spelling. Plus mtg does not print out all of its rules.

see messed up stuff happens in tournaments too.

All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?

@Young:

All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?

If they haven’t rolled any dice, what’s the big deal? If you’re in a friendly game and your opponent is about to get 5 trns burned in his attack because he doesn’t realize you can scramble, it’s just being sportsmanlike to say "wait are you SURE you are done with combat move, and then coyly point at the scramblable fighter. If they still don’t get it, then it’s time for a rules lesson.

It’s one thing to warn your opponent that they left their undefended transports in range of your attack; I don’t think that’s necessary unless they are really new, and even then, that player will learn to count range of your units. But, if a player just throws away several loaded transports because of ignorance of a rule, I think it’s rather unconscionable to let them do that in all but the most competitive of games.

Players should be taken to task for moving a unit to far or forgetting to move an AA gun or forgetting to repair an airbase, but it seems that 95+% of the time, if a transport situation like the ones above occurs, it’s not because of laziness or forgetfulness, but because of ignorance of the rules. I’ve been playing axis and allies half my life and it’s sometimes disheartening how confused I get it some situations.

@Cow:

how can you deny a big battle that is just silly. if you are going to rules guru someone like that at least give a heads up before something is resolved.

In either case, I think a large battle should be well thought out ahead of time.  Something silly like forgetting a walkin, that’s completly different.  Hell, I have no problem with players allowing their opponents to revise their CM to take free territories during NCM in their league/tournament games.  I just draw the line there.  For fun?  Sure, it was a free territory, wtf, not like you have any dice for it (or a free transport shot, whatever.)  League/Tournament?  You forgot it, not my fault your admirals/generals can’t follow orders!

I am very forgiving and always point out obvious oversights.
Maybe that is why I will never play a tournament: might just open my big mouth and help my opponent!

Related to the original question, I’m wondering whether it’s allowed to protect transports with planes only during an amphibious attack and without any sea combat. For example, suppose there’s a German amphibious attack on Novgorod from sea zone 115 by unloading transports alone, is it allowed to fly fighters from Germany into sea zone 115 in order to protect the transports from scrambling?
The rules say that accompanying sea units can move with the transports when moving into an uncontested sea zone. Can air units do the same? It would be counter-intuitive if they couldn’t, because in the above example they definitely could if there were, say, a Russian destroyer in sea zone 115, just because it would be combat.

Herr KaLeun: I am sure you can,precisely  so as to prevent such a scramble.

@Herr:

Related to the original question, I’m wondering whether it’s allowed to protect transports with planes only during an amphibious attack and without any sea combat. For example, suppose there’s a German amphibious attack on Novgorod from sea zone 115 by unloading transports alone, is it allowed to fly fighters from Germany into sea zone 115 in order to protect the transports from scrambling?
The rules say that accompanying sea units can move with the transports when moving into an uncontested sea zone. Can air units do the same? It would be counter-intuitive if they couldn’t, because in the above example they definitely could if there were, say, a Russian destroyer in sea zone 115, just because it would be combat.

I am pretty sure I remember krieghund saying you could move planes into a seazone even if there are no enemy units in anticipation of a scramble.

ya, the correct move for this russian player would have been to leave a single fighter behind with his carrier + transports, in order to defend against the possible scramble.

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

@Young:

All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?

If they haven’t rolled any dice, what’s the big deal? If you’re in a friendly game and your opponent is about to get 5 trns burned in his attack because he doesn’t realize you can scramble, it’s just being sportsmanlike to say "wait are you SURE you are done with combat move, and then coyly point at the scramblable fighter. If they still don’t get it, then it’s time for a rules lesson.

I always ask if they are sure their combat movement phase is done, and everyone is given plenty of time during their turn. Our whole group of 6 plays this way, and we have a very friendly gaming experience. Strategic bombing raids are first, if there are none, amphibious assults are next, that’s when a plane can scramble to destroy defenceless transports before any dice are thrown. so in our groups we specify that combat movements are done when you declare that they are done, and not when “dice are rolled”.

I believe in giving leeway every once in a while.  If it becomes a feaking habbit, then I’ll corner him to the wall and make good and darn sure he doesn’t get away with it.  In friendly games.  I mean, what’s the harm in, once, out of 12 game rounds, someone forgets to do a walk in?  Let him have it, you were probably expecting it and expecting to have to counter attack or whatever anyway.

In other words, I’d rather play a game with friends, then alienate a friend over a 1 IPC territory.  Except in league/tournament.  You die then.  And I watch you scream and giggle softly to myself while I do it.

Wittmann, Von Lettow Vorbeck: thanks for the clarification.

@Young:

I always ask if they are sure their combat movement phase is done, and everyone is given plenty of time during their turn. Our whole group of 6 plays this way, and we have a very friendly gaming experience. Strategic bombing raids are first, if there are none, amphibious assults are next, that’s when a plane can scramble to destroy defenceless transports before any dice are thrown. so in our groups we specify that combat movements are done when you declare that they are done, and not when “dice are rolled”.

You missed what I wrote. I asked what the big deal is if they haven’t rolled any dice. I never said that TECHNICALLY they could by the rules go back and change something, but honestly, if no dice have been rolled and you are playing a friendly game, what difference does it really make if a player wants to go back and change something once they happened to say that they are ready for combat.