US versus China for world position

Mr Crunch,

In the middle of the second page, for example, you said the way around one of the problems with China was …

"I said it before and will say it again, instead of gutting US environmental laws (and labour laws), enforce them on Chinese companies and products. "

This is the sort of thing I shared when I observed that your solutions sound like the Bullying that folks complain about when they talk about the power and influence of the US.  You asked (on page 5) that I provide an example, so there you are.

Fuel went up only 10%, The cost of cooking oil/gas did go up by 50%, but what they pay already is very low compared to us.

They= people of Jordan.

Some people in some countries in the middle east feel the US is keeping unpopular rulers in power

And they support this view because they have other axes to grind, mainly an anti-western crusade

But not buying say unsafe products that kill your citizens cause they are made of poison…not bullying.

Id rather have bullying than killing people so cheap goods could be sold.

@Imperious:

And they support this view because they have other axes to grind, mainly an anti-western crusade

http://gbk.eads.usaidallnet.gov/data/files/us_military_historical.xls

Foreign military aid FY2010:
Bahrain    $19.7 million
Egypt      $1.3 billion
Israel      $2.8 billion
Jordan    $303.8 million
Oman      $10.4 million

Can you understand how even unbiased people might come to associate the United States with Middle Eastern governments?

Israel      $2.8 billion

And they support this view because they have other axes to grind, mainly an anti-western crusade or hate Israel and since we are her friend , we become their enemy.

Why couldn’t they support that view on it’s own merits given the last 70 years of US involvement in the Middle East?

Tying back to the OP (since I didn’t mean to derail), I was trying to find figures on Chinese foreign military aid (i.e. from China to elsewhere).

Interesting article about US/Chinese interest in Pakistan.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/sorry-pakistan-china-no-sugar-daddy

Alright. I’ve edited this topic heavily, and tried and remove both the political aspects earlier in the thread, as well as the heated debate that happened in the middle of the thread. This topic is concerned with China and US and how they are developing themselves currently as world super powers. This thread is not concerned with bashing America, nor necessarily with bashing China. If we talk about human rights implications, that is fine, but understand that allowing that line of discussion is in line with discussing how that affects their position instead of making generalizations about the people groups, cultures, etc.

I am not bringing this topic back to appease members. I am not bringing this topic back to spite members. I never considered the topic a total failure, i.e. a politically charged topic bound to result in debate. I just realized I had let go of my duty as a moderator to keep track of it, and subsequently it had gotten out of hand. I will be monitoring this thread as I do all general discussions.

Post away.

GG

@Guerrilla:

Alright. I’ve edited this topic heavily, and tried and remove both the political aspects earlier in the thread, as well as the heated debate that happened in the middle of the thread. This topic is concerned with China and US and how they are developing themselves currently as world super powers. This thread is not concerned with bashing America, nor necessarily with bashing China. If we talk about human rights implications, that is fine, but understand that allowing that line of discussion is in line with discussing how that affects their position instead of making generalizations about the people groups, cultures, etc.

I am not bringing this topic back to appease members. I am not bringing this topic back to spite members. I never considered the topic a total failure, i.e. a politically charged topic bound to result in debate. I just realized I had let go of my duty as a moderator to keep track of it, and subsequently it had gotten out of hand. I will be monitoring this thread as I do all general discussions.

Post away.

GG

BURN IT!!! BURN IT ALL!!!

@Young:

BURN IT!!! BURN IT ALL!!!

I’m with garsshopper on this one, BURN IT TO THE GROUND!!!

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Everyone knows they are doing it but nobody dares to ask them to stop?

China military unit 'behind prolific hacking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21502088

I imagine we have imbedded units trying to break into their infrastructure and gain definitive proof. It kind of shows that they have a significant weakness in some R&D if they are having to cheat their way into the 21st Century. Holding debt is only one piece of the domination puzzle. Otherwise, why risk the espionage? Especially with the possible reparations.

GG

In the Nortel case, was it ever connected to the Chinese government? Granted, I do think the US is more likely to react if they found out it was an Aerospace or Defense Contractor somewhere in the AngloAmerican Sphere, but China can just call foul on their constituency, which they cannot find.

GG

@MrMalachiCrunch:

GG, the articles I cited directly pointed the finger at China.  China can claim it’s the actions of their private citizens….who have to bypass the great firewall of China.

China is targeting “Aerospace or Defense Contractor somewhere in the AngloAmerican Sphere”

Happens every day

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2121624/Every-major-company-U-S-hacked-China-Cyber-espionage-warning-U-S-security-chief-warned-9-11.html

Just in today’s headlines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21556611

An old article but funny Microsoft software runs US aircraft carriers….

http://ubiquity.acm.org/article.cfm?id=348785

I understand that, as far as the original article. The Nortel article doesn’t state it was the government, “just hackers apparently based in China carried on a decade-long campaign of stealing technical papers, R&D reports, employee e-mails, and other sensitive documents from the network company.” No governmental ties, or none stated. You seem to be stating that the Nortel case was an example of no penalty being ascribed to a government, yet in all honesty it would be against individuals within the government’s jurisdiction doing illegal activity.

In the unit 69318 case, they haven’t definitively proven that, so of course no sanctions. I don’t doubt the Anglo-American sphere are trying to imbed operatives to figure out if there is a link. The second the US has a lock for that the Chinese government hacked into Lockheed and stole plans for the F-35, I have no doubt there will be embargoes to pay for Chinese goods.

GG

@MrMalachiCrunch:

The unit 69318 case…. It could be just a group of a few 100 computer scientists who routinely breach the firewall of china on a 24/7 basis with huge resources and working out of a state owned building with massive fibre optic hookups.  In a nation where its dangerous for two falan gong members to talk, having 100s of people working for years breaching nation-state firewalls is just beyond belief that the state is not aware and supportive of this.

I’m in agreement, I think the Chinese government would go to great lengths to infiltrate Western Corporate databases and steal information for nefarious reasons or otherwise. If the state is supportive of it, they are hiding it well though, that is my point. We have nothing to pin on them, even if we wanted reparations. I find it odd though, you stated in the first post that you found it odd that no one asked China to stop, and later on stated that they inevitably are a bully that the West are impotent to oppose. I’m not a big believer in international political pressure, but you must have something in mind, and I’m guessing beside embargoes?

Same with Nortel.  You just can’t have this kinda of persistent attacks going on without state support.  Gangs and individuals steal things they can make money on.  What China is getting is unique to state actors.

Gangs and individuals steal things they can make money on? What about Anonymous? Sony, Visa, Paypal, Amazon, Bank of America, Tunisian Government, Australian Government. I digress though. I think with examples like Nortel, you are seeing the reemergence of the Cold War, with different secondary actors, namely MNC’s.

For instance, what financial gain would gangs get from jamming the broadcasts of the BBC?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21575913

I refer back to Anonymous, which has had a multiplicity of ethical engagements with different entities.

If the US can prove a smoking gun, you really thing they will punish China with trade embargoes?  No, when a bully can not only steal your lunch money but just take it in front of your parents and teachers nobody dares to mention the 8, 000 lb gorilla then you know you are dealing with a tough bully.

If China was doing it in the open, then I would say you would be right. Once again, even according to the article, they haven’t definitively proved state-sponsored involvement. “Probably,” is a stretch, and in international politics, outright innocence.

I would love to see China be made to play fair but nobody dares speak the obvious.

I think some (certainly not all) of China’s degrade will actually come from an odd source, a resurgence of ethical fervor in the West. I don’t mean religious fervor either (although for some, that has tied in), but with the successful marketing ploys of smaller corporations, like Freeb!rds, Chipotle, IKEA, Whole Foods, etc. It would take years, but part of the anger is focused on China and other major players in the “diminished working conditions” world.

Report out of the UK outlining consumer shifts: http://www.co-operative.coop/PageFiles/416561607/Ethical-Consumerism-Report-2011.pdf

GG