Does Sealion break the Game(Europe Only)

I’m still waiting to see a reliable Sealion strategy presented anywhere.

8-)

My thoughts are that there is an opportunity cost to going UK first. UK alone is not worth enough victory cities to win. You need Russian cities, does your sea lion slow or prevent success in Russia? If not, then maybe. Time will tell.

In the unlikely event UK does not have any blocking ships left after the G1 attack, all you have to do is build an inf stack UK1. If UK has a DD, Italy fighters can take it out so UK cannot take chance.

What is interesting is Germany builds the TT’s to threaten Sealion, forcing UK to waste a turn building defense, instead of rebuilding their navy.

G2 land those loaded transports in Finland (moving through still neutral USSR fleet) to place troops on the border for turn 3 Barbarossa.

sounds like a rhetorical question… did you lose a game to jim010 where he did Sealion to your UK?

Ironically enough, he did not lose that game  :-D.

@calvinhobbesliker:

What do you think?

If everyone says that Germany can both take out UK and all three of Russia’s victory cities, then I have no reason to doubt that.  What I don’t understand is how they can do all this while Italy doesn’t lose both the Egypt and South Italy victory cities, keeping them one victory city short of victory.  Combine that with all the convoy raiding that USA should be doing by this time, then the Axis now have an income disadvantage that they can’t recover from.

I think the two key questions that need to be answered is this:  1) What turn does the third Soviet victory city usually fall when Germany does the Sealion, ASSUMING expert play on the part of the Allies?; 2)  Can the USA take out both South Italy and Egypt by the same turn?

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Latro:

I’m still waiting to see a reliable Sealion strategy presented anywhere.

8-)

Ask jim010

Well jim10 …

If you would be so kind comment on your strategy, I would be more than happy to try and shoot a lot of holes in it!

:wink:

Fire up a game.

We’ll do low luck.

It only makes it hard for UK to go for that Italian fleet. It forces a decision. The attack itself will succeed if his AA don’t shoot a plane and your able to block any ships from blocking the two sea zones and you also defeat all ships in range, while protect your fleet.

In all honesty, it seems others have come to the same ideas as I have quite independently.  Sgtblitz has just made the same moves on me as I am doing in my latest games (and I hadn’t played him before) so I can only assume that players are coming to the same conclusions.

Hell, maybe I am missing something.

But those round robins I played, taking UK out and removing approx. $30 a turn from the Allies.  Having the $81 to spend round 4.  The fleet in sz109 to force the US to eat through it (and I leave before that happens anyway, but it forces the US to come over in strength in navy).  The 11 TTs in sz110 that can swing back at Russia w/ the buys in West Germany.  The lull in Africa to allow Italy to knock out UK in Egypt.

I think that’s tough to beat.

Again.  Maybe I’m missing something.  Barring dice, (like the game I am now playing where I failed in France turn 1  :x) if someone can shove this tactic back down my own throat, then I will believe.

But right now, I don’t want Allies w/o 4 - 5 inf in UK.

It only makes it hard for UK to go for that Italian fleet. It forces a decision. The attack itself will succeed if his AA don’t shoot a plane and your able to block any ships from blocking the two sea zones and you also defeat all ships in range, while protect your fleet.

You can’t block the G3 London attack.

If you get luck and survive with some UK ships, then you could stand in front of the Germans.  But I doubt it would prevent the Germans from pushing through - and that scenario wil not be the norm.  Likely you won’t have any ships in range except for the Gibraltar fleet.

Unless you’re really lucky in the AAs, Germany will still take UK on G3.

Which it why it stops a Taranto raid

I wonder about that.  I think you’re still better off hitting sz93.  Any planes that survive the counterattack then fly to London.

Only other option I see is hitting the German fleet in sz112 - and that is liekly to fail.

@jim010:

Fire up a game.

We’ll do low luck.

A good idea … but unfortunately I’m really really really limited in available time  :cry:

Perhaps if someone else jumps in as well to keep the pace going? Or perhaps there already is an online game posted here somewhere to see Sealion in action according to your plans? Or just giving a short summary?

runs off to work

8-)

@jim010:

But right now, I don’t want Allies w/o 4 - 5 inf in UK.

It sounds like you are taking UK on turn 3 on average. It also sounds like you are still winning the game as the axis with UK under control.

Is your question about Sealion breaking the game about a long term axis win after the fall of UK?

With Paris and London, you will still need 2 out of 3 Russian cities and Egypt.

Since the U.S. can threaten Italian control of Rome and Egypt at the same time, Italy is likely to choose to protect Rome. Unless Germany can capture 3 Russian cities, The U.S. could take Egypt. Forcing Germany to take Russia for the win. If Egypt is held when Russia falls, the U.S. has one turn to capture London.

Can the axis, build enough units to take Russia, and also enough units to defend London, Rome, and Paris from a staged U.S. fleet in Gibraltar? If the answer proves to be yes, then Sealion would break the game.

Have any of the UK players you faced chosen to build Navy instead of Land Units. Its obvious that Land units will not defend UK long term, given that conclusion its logical to force the Germans to trap their IPCs in a navy that can’t be used against Russian land units. If the Germans realize this, they can choose to build more expensive air units that can be redirected at Russia later. In which case, you have to bleed them of those units as they take the UK.

How many transports do you build in order to take UK turn 3? I found I had to stage units in Scottland first before I took it on G4. That required 11 German transports when I did it. I had to strip Europe of land units and use Italy to defend Germany from the Russian stack that took Slovakia R4. I later scrapped that test game as position was horrible for a long term win.

When I’m done tweaking this tactic, I’ll post, but I see others are already doing it as well.

I prefer to play out my ideas, rather than debate them, as without seeing a whole board, or accounting for what a board looks like after a couple turns, I can’t tell you what moves I would make.

I will say that everyone talking about conquering UK or even a couple cities in Russia doesn’t win you the game in the long run.  That reminds me of those that said if Japan conquers the US in Pacific, they still lose b/c they don’t have the remaining cities and can’t face the remaining opponents.

What exactly do people think Germany or Japan are going to do with all this newly infused cash on thier very next turn?

I will be able to play a new game in a few days.  Those of you that want to show me how its done will get a chance.

to answer the question, no. Its very simple,really–Sealion does not have to be done. Unless you are playing for money,why do you need to end a game in 10 minutes that you spent a hundred bucks on and 30 minutes setting up? There is no rule saying you have to do it. Just dont and then the game isnt broken. See how easy that was?