Calvin found a loophole in Sealion that invalidates the UK naval block!

IL likes to get excited and forgets basic parts of the game…  ;-)  Just Playin’ IL!

Isn’t there a scramble rule - putting some ftrs in West-Ger can save the fleet in SZ 112. The fighters can still attack UK because they are in an airbase. The West-German airbase rules!

Ow, and putting a dd in SZ 119 with UK does block acces to SZ 109 via SZ 119 right?

Building a destroyer and 3 transports in z112 is the most suicidal move i have heard yet. It may well save the italian navy, but thats only by giving the UK a much better target.

@Imperious:

It has come to my attention that Germany might get away with a 1 DD and 3 AP build and bring everything to SZ 112. Then on G1 ( regardless of what UK does) it can swing FROM THE OTHER SIDE and invade UK from her west coast ( SZ 109) using her port movement bonus. Germany needs to do two things to make this possible:

Bring 4 tanks and 4 infantry from east front to west Germany, also UK needs to lose in a battle of 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD against 3 fighters. This is quite even. If it wins the German player loses her planes, but if they fail, UK will fall no matter what as Germany has now 4 tanks and 4 infantry landing ( before it was 6 units). Note that UK will lose planes in this fight too.

IN a battle of 1 BB CA DD  ( 4/3/2 vs. 3/3/3) Germany should have the edge if the BB is undamaged.

The UK cant prevent sealion with a naval block at all in SZ 110.

They must instead abandon the attack against Italy and Bring the third plane ( tactical bomber) to UK giving them just 3 more.

Good thinking Cal!

Im thinking of a new plan now. With 30 IPC Germany might go with 3 transport build and a DD, forcing UK to attack 1 BB, 1 CA, and 1 DD with 3 fighters.

4/3/2 vs. 3/3/3 and the BB gets two hits…

But if the UK fails Germany now has 1 more tank and 1 infantry as soakers and UK lost a fighter or two.
’
But think about it. It Gets worse!!!

even if the German fleet is sunk, the transports can still land unopposed, because UK didn’t block! Of course they lost the BB and CA SB, but gained another 3 and 1 for soakers every round.

The new line up is: 1 bomber, 4 fighters, 3 tactical, 4 tanks, 4 infantry= 16 units, vs. 12 UK infantry and perhaps 1 fighter for 13 units.

Germany will take UK this way even better. Calvin good job.

I now know for certain that Italy needs to be neutral till her own turn, or UK falls.

How do you hit the RN? I assume you kill everything around England. In these attacks you are likely to loose two planes. That means that you dont have 8 planes for the invation, 6 is more likely. Do you also kill the fleet outside Canada? This is reay streaching the Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine but if you dont you will have a extra tank and inf in england by G2. Then the lineup is 12 inf, 3 fig, 1 tank and 1 aa against 4 inf, 4 tanks, 3 figs and 3 bmbs. Even with shorebombard this is not a good fight.

Unless you are lucky with your dice this move does not force the UK to skip the raid on the Italian fleet.

I am confused. I thought IL was basing his strategy while missing the fact that the Gibraltar CV and CL can attack sz112.

And Holkann: fighters can only scramble from airbases on island (territory with one seazone all around it).

@Tavenier:

…

And Holkann: fighters can only scramble from airbases on island (territory with one seazone all around it).

tnx  :-)

IL, in your battle simulator, you forgot to put in the tank from Canada and the 3rd ftr.

why is everyone so obsessed with saving the Italian boats.  Oh noes, Italy looses a BB, Cru, and Transport (39 IPCs worth of stuff) at the cost of UK loosing a loaded carrier (36 ish IPCs worth of stuff).  I’m just not getting it.

Adding to that, it means the UK cannot get another boat safely into the med again until turn 3, more likely turn 4, or any navy near Europe for that matter.

The italian player can always buy a DD turn 1 (8) take south france + greece and purchase a carrier turn 2.

Why doesn’t the UK just send its CV from 91 to SZ 119 to block the eastward invasion route, and send its DD from 91 to help in the 3 fig attack against the DD/BB/CA in SZ 112?

K, how about this?  Let’s call it the Double Block plus Italy Save Manuever.  I would only recommend this if you’re feeling lucky.

Germany builds 1 DD and 3 TRNS.  The German fleet is kept in SZ 113 during G1 combat, which just uses subs and planes to kill everything reachable with more air casaulties acceptable.

NCM:  1 CA moves to SZ 104 to block the DD and CV.  The BB stays in SZ 113 along with the TRN (trn moves 2 inf to Norway.)  The DD is placed in SZ 112, and the 3 other TRNS go into SZ 113.  Land Material is moved to W. Germany to prep for a 4 TRN G2 Sealion.

Britain can attack the SZ 104 CA with one DD and one tac, attack the SZ 112 DD with one fighter, and HAS to attack SZ 113 with two fighters.  They HAVE to make this specific attack in order to hit the transports in SZ 113 for the CV to be in range for the fighters to land.  Actually, the SZ 112 DD place is more about preventing a UK naval block with its CV in SZ 112 than for the 2 fighters to land.

If the SZ 113 battle goes right (2 FIG vs. 1 BB, 52% chance of the UK winning using TripleA calc, with a 17% chance of a draw and the transports surviving), the 4 transports should be able to still land on the UK IF SZ 112 is clear.  The chances of the UK winning the SZ 104 battle is 86%, with a 7% chance for a draw, and the chance of the UK winning the SZ 112 battle is 50%, with a 25% chance for a draw.  That’s two 50% chances there, plus you have a good chance of shooting down quite a bit of the UK’s airforce.

Even if the SZ 104 attack kills your CA, and the SZ 112 attack kills your DD, so the UK moves its CV into SZ 112, even if it only has one plane on it you may still have a chance.  Both Italian fighters can reach SZ 112 on I1 and you can have a last ditch attack to try to clear the way for a Sealion G2 (another 50% chance of winning there with one plane).

Pretty risky, but it does leave the german airforce mostly intact for Sealion G2 and doesn’t require a G1 UK air raid.

@oztea:

Are we so sure?
Isnt the UK battle 3 Fighers and a Tactical Bomber? Agaisnt the German BB, CA, DD?

IL wait, think about what you are saying……

In SZ 112 UK can also throw a DD and its AC at your transport fleet to soak hits

Sealion can not be done without a German Carrier…it just cant

The battle UK 1 in SZ 112 is enourmously in UKs favor. AC(2 hits)/DD/3 FGT/1 TAC vs BB/CA/DD/4 TRN

Good luck bro…

Even two DD -assuming the one off the British West-Coast at set-up didn’t get destroyed (which usually isn’t attacked in our games, because it would be spreading the German forces too thin; on second thoughts you could use two subs for it instead of sending those to the Canadian seaboard to attack the DD and TRA there. The benefit of the latter is that you would cause 3 IPCs of convoy hunting damage there).- which would make the odds even better!

@Imperious:

and the 3 other TRNS go into SZ 113.

UK’s fighters can kill that. UK has an AB

The UK isn’t an island (funnily enough), so fighter units can’t scramble (I think you’re referring to that??)

@HolKann:

Isn’t there a scramble rule - putting some ftrs in West-Ger can save the fleet in SZ 112. The fighters can still attack UK because they are in an airbase. The West-German airbase rules!

Ow, and putting a dd in SZ 119 with UK does block acces to SZ 109 via SZ 119 right?

Aircraft (not bombers) can only scramble from ISLANDS with an airbase. West-Germany may have an airbase, but it’s NOT an ISLAND (Niether is the UK, by the letter of the rules, for that matter!)

@Imperious:

and the 3 other TRNS go into SZ 113.

UK’s fighters can kill that. UK has an AB

Uk ftrs can’t hit sz 113 from England and return home. You can get two ftrs into that battle, but UK must either bring up the sz 91 carrier, or build one in sz 110 to pick up surviving ftrs (if any).

He is also leaving the German BB in sz 113 w/3 transports. The UK can only get 2 ftrs to sz 113, if it (theoretically) brings the carrier up to land the planes (or builds a carrier in sz 110). I say theoretically, because the carrier may not be able to noncombat in to pick up the surviving ftrs from the sz 113 battle. The UK would also have to kill the German cruiser that is cock blocking in sz 104 to bring the carrier up.

IL,
In any case, if you give the UK a juicier German target (fleet), then yeah you will probably save the Italian fleet. The Italian fleet is worth 39 ipc’s. The starting German fleet is exactly the same (39 ipc), but you are adding boats to it to be slaughtered (getting over 60 ipc’s). If you lose the German fleet it’s just as bad as losing the Italian fleet (you would know this if you actually played a game). The Germans need a fleet in the safety of the Baltic to keep Norway. In global Norway is part of your NO (Norway is tied to two German NO’s in Europe only). Germany must fight for Norway the same as Italy fights for Egypt (Africa). Once Norway is allied, things get really tough on Germany. Especially if the US gets it (builds a major ic). So before you go sacrificing the German fleet, keep this in mind. Plus building only fleet G1 will give Russia some breathing room. If you lose that fleet the soviets will be stronger then you would like. Adding to the German fleet is a good idea (but keep it in the Baltic for now). I have played UK a few times and the Germans have got ballsy and came out into the North Sea to early. They paid the price, and opened up a lot of doors.

@Imperious:

and the 3 other TRNS go into SZ 113.

UK’s fighters can kill that. UK has an AB

If you leave your BB with the 4 trans, the most the UK can reach that fleet with is 2 fighters (he can only land 2 on the CV).  The other fighters can’t be flown cause they couldn’t have landed on the CV.

STOP with the 2 letter acronyms please.

there are NOT 2 B’s in Battleship. and no V in CARRIER.

and WTF does AP have to do with TRANSPORTS?  Or does AP stand for Airplane? which would then require a designation for fgt, bmb, or tac.

Use 3 letters to standardize everything with letters and terms that actually make sense.  It’s really not that hard.

1 ACC 1 BAT 1 DST 3 TRN much easer to figure out than 1CV 1BB 1 DD 2 AP

Don’t make Axis and Allies a foriegn language for no reason.  3 letter acronyms are used in battlemap for territories for obvious reasons as well.