An Easy Italian Fix

It comes down to a trade, a trade of 1 UK carrier, cruiser, destroyer and 1-2 planes to kill an Italian BB, Cruiser, and transport, and the german planes used in the counter attack.  It is a trade because Germany should kill that fleet on the following turn at the cost of some planes.  Is it a good trade?  I don’t think so, as it means the Germans have no fear of any landings until turn 4 at the earliest in Europe.

If instead you retreat that carrier/destroyer to canada, combine it with some more ships built turn 1 (possibly another carrier, transport, and possibly a destroyer) and turn 2 you may have enough fleet to threaten a drop in Europe depending on the sea lion threat.  And on turn 3 you should be able to nab Norway.  Not to mention how many fewer warships the US will need and the larger quantity of transports/troops they can build.

Yes you slow down Italy, but in that area of the board Japan is the real threat, not Italy.  In addition, Italy is already vulnerable to begin with against the US.  And lastly, even without expanding beyond a 15 IPC income Italy is still a huge help as that’s 5 men helping to defend the coast, potential can opener troops, and acts as a magnet/stall for Germany.

I really think the can opener threat is not being truly appreciated in the game.  With 4 IPC mech infantry the Germans can really bring the threat.  A stack in Ukraine threatens both Stalingrad and Moscow.  Combine that with Leningrad falling early, which it should, and you have a huge German income.

I like the dow “fix”.

Btw, historically Taranto attack didn’t do much damage to the Italian fleet.
The only thing Taranto attack did was inspiring the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, and when they did the americans convenientely “didn’t notice” the attack BUT the most important ships (the CVs) where OUT at that precise moment. There are people that think roosvelt knew about Pearl Harbor and liked the idea of it in order to get the consensus of declaring war to the axis.
After 8 september '43 the navy was ordered to go to Malta, and Roma was sunk by the Germans.

It appears the Italy fleet raid was intended.

From Larry’s forums: http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2537&start=8
@Striker:

I’ll be interested in hearing a reply from Larry or a playtester that says either “Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.” or “Woops, we might have made and oversight there.”

@Krieghund:

Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.

@Imperious:

That’s exactly what you should NOT do is bring the CV in the battle.

Well the CV is for defense to protect the fleet from the other Italian units. I think the CV will survive the battle, while the idea is to trade out the balance of Italys navy because at 10 IPC it can’t buy a new navy as well as UK.

But it can certainly put ships in the Med much faster than the Brits. And, as always, the dice is always unpredictable; the most hits Italy can get is two hits. If the UK player takes out the destroyer and cruiser as casualties, that’s  going to severely limit its projection of power in the Med. If it takes out both air units, that’s two less air units that could have helped in the defense of Egypt, or protecting the French fleet.

If the carrier takes a hit, that also dooms the air units.

what do you think the results of the battle might be if the CV stays?

Less catastrophic for the British player, that’s for sure. If the Italians roll two hits and the British player is forced to take out the destroyer and cruiser, the carrier, in a NCM, can move with the French fleet and land the tactical bomber and fighter on it. Yes, Germany might attack it with its air force (again, this depends on how much of the air force was destroyed on G1), but a cruiser, destroyer, aircraft carrier, a fighter, and tactical bomber will be quite a match-up against an air attack, those precious Luftwaffe units that would be better off being transferred to the Eastern Front.

@Striker:

It appears the Italy fleet raid was intended.

From Larry’s forums: http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2537&start=8
@Striker:

I’ll be interested in hearing a reply from Larry or a playtester that says either “Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.” or “Woops, we might have made and oversight there.”

@Krieghund:

Yes, we intended that to be a possible opening move for Britain, duh.

The key words here are “intended”, which is what you choose to use; the other is “possible”, which is what Krieghund used.  I think this game was very well playtested(other than AAP40 aircraft that can effect the Euro side).  The play testers made all sorts of things “possible” to give players many interesting things to think about.  I think the UK spending its naval assets like that in the Med is a foolish move…they dont have much in the way of navy after G1 and do not have many IPC’s to re-build a serious task force…as well, they have non-navel demands on their IPC’s.  Dont do it, its a trap!

The british should do the Italian raid every game, and NCM the carrier to the french fleet.  Most of the time the UK will with with 1 tac, 1 ftr to land on the carrier.  If the germans want to attack 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 Tac, 1 Ftr with air, than so be it- they will lose 2-3 aircraft in the first round, with another 1-2 in the second round (depending on how many hits the germans get).  If the German airforce is depleted that much, then subsequent UK builds are much safer.

Of course if the Germans build 1 CV, 2 Transports round 1, then the Tac will be needed in the defense of Great Britain…

@BJCard:

The british should do the Italian raid every game, and NCM the carrier to the french fleet.  Most of the time the UK will with with 1 tac, 1 ftr to land on the carrier.  If the germans want to attack 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 Tac, 1 Ftr with air, than so be it- they will lose 2-3 aircraft in the first round, with another 1-2 in the second round (depending on how many hits the germans get).  If the German airforce is depleted that much, then subsequent UK builds are much safer.

Of course if the Germans build 1 CV, 2 Transports round 1, then the Tac will be needed in the defense of Great Britain…

They WILL lose 2-3 aircraft? I don’t think so. The dice, as I’ve said for the umpteenth time, can be very unpredictable.

@BJCard:

The british should do the Italian raid every game, and NCM the carrier to the french fleet.  Most of the time the UK will with with 1 tac, 1 ftr to land on the carrier.  If the germans want to attack 1 DD, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 Tac, 1 Ftr with air, than so be it- they will lose 2-3 aircraft in the first round, with another 1-2 in the second round (depending on how many hits the germans get).  If the German airforce is depleted that much, then subsequent UK builds are much safer.

Of course if the Germans build 1 CV, 2 Transports round 1, then the Tac will be needed in the defense of Great Britain…

Last week several of us here played out that scenario and it ended badly for the Allies.  Its worth it for Germany to lose 2-3 aircraft to help the Italians clear the Med.  Depending on the first round die rolls, the Germans need not finish the job, they can leave that to the Italians who have 1CA, 1DD, 2FTR’s to mop up.

Yes, but is it worse for Italy to rule the med with 2 Transports from turn 1?  I think you lose Cairo pretty fast- and thus lose Africa- killing UK’s income (and hence fleet making abilities).

@BJCard:

Yes, but is it worse for Italy to rule the med with 2 Transports from turn 1?  I think you lose Cairo pretty fast- and thus lose Africa- killing UK’s income (and hence fleet making abilities).

Italy should take Egypt anyway.  Our game did’nt get that far.  I had only 1 TRS(took Transjordan), but the UK had to evacuate Egypt or lose everything there on I2.  I would rally all UK remaining ships probably off the coast of S. Africa(IC to add stuff to the fleet), bring the CA, TRS in the Med south, the CA off the coast of S. America, DD already at S. Africa…any UK naval units from the Pacific…that would be: 1CV(FTR/TAC), 2CA’s, 2DD’s, 1TRS, plus Pacific side assets that I wont list since that depends on Japan…then add what would probably be 2+ SUBs and 1 or 2 more TRS…now you have a task force and can go where you want without much fear.

So, if we go with this, when does Italy go to war if Paris doesn’t fall?

Can it stay out of the war indefinitely?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_steel

No Italy is at war on HER first turn. She is not at war on UK’s turn.

UK should be able to attack anyone she sees as a threat.  Hell, they can attack Japan on ANY turn.

Just roll the dice correctly and you will win each time……bamb…fixed