Tank Purchases R.I.P.

@calvinhobbesliker:

@xzorn:

In a landing, the 2 space thing isn’t too big of a deal. The best thing about landing tanks is that they can better hold the land you’ve captured.

In later turns, they still move 2

Owkey, why not put in a mech then if moving 2 is important? Wait, I know the answer: mechs attack at 1. So why not an rtl? Because they don’t move 2. So why not a mech? etc. etc. Am I the only one who sees the walking in circles here?

As I said, ONLY if moving 2 is important AND you’re severely lacking attack force, an arm is worth its 6 ipc’s. Anyone who argues with this point?

If you agree on this, I say a good general will have a steady supply of rtls/air to generate attacking force, and mechs to generate mobility. It’s just so much cheaper. The rare occasions you’d want to blitz or move 2 and attack @ 3, but you can’t because you didn’t buy (enough) tanks, are more than made up for by the extra rtl/mech you’re saving every time you don’t by 2 tanks.

@Bruda_Iz:

Even though I’m an admitted noob to some aspects of this game its been my experience that this whole game hangs on small margins like this.

What’s the small margin? The fact you save more than half an infantry? Or the fact you have a minimally better skew at some distant battle? Don’t count on small margins when the big ones aren’t mastered… Remember, hits > pips > skew, in that order and no other.

Germany or japan don’t need transports to defeat Russia. This is not relevant for how the other nations need to play to win. For them they use other means to win and for Germany and Japan to win this means defeating Russia and tanks are the way to do it. At 6 IPC this may not be the case, but the solution will still be tanks because its the only cost effective unit that is ranked higher than the 2 on defense and you need more 3’s to win the battle of 2’s. Of course planes have a say, but the tank will do the dirty work in this regard.

The discussion regarding the tank glitch at 5 IPC shows fully that tanks ruled. Now its more subdued but still used even at 6 IPC.

@Imperious:

The discussion regarding the tank glitch at 5 IPC shows fully that tanks ruled. Now its more subdued but still used even at 6 IPC.

Tanks at 6 would be perfect if mech was at 5. I hope there won’t be a mech/air or mech/rtl glitch… For instance, G1 all out rtl, G2+ all out mech. Or G1+ always half of the buy mech, other half varies between air/inf/rtl. Good luck trying it out ;)

I think I know what hits are… but what are pips and skews?

@HolKann:

@Bruda_Iz:

Even though I’m an admitted noob to some aspects of this game its been my experience that this whole game hangs on small margins like this.

What’s the small margin? The fact you save more than half an infantry? Or the fact you have a minimally better skew at some distant battle? Don’t count on small margins when the big ones aren’t mastered… Remember, hits > pips > skew, in that order and no other.

@Bruda_Iz:

I think I know what hits are… but what are pips and skews?

@HolKann:

@Bruda_Iz:

Even though I’m an admitted noob to some aspects of this game its been my experience that this whole game hangs on small margins like this.

What’s the small margin? The fact you save more than half an infantry? Or the fact you have a minimally better skew at some distant battle? Don’t count on small margins when the big ones aren’t mastered… Remember, hits > pips > skew, in that order and no other.

Pips are total of attack value. Thus, an inf and tank would be 4(1+3). Hits are number of hits you can take before you’re dead(don’t include transports). Skew is the difference in attack values. 10 1’s and 10 3’s will win over 20 2’s because the former will lose 1’s while the latter will lose 2’s

Thanks for clearing that up CHL… it turns out I didnt even know what hits were.  Just a question though in your experience has this been a useful way to analyze the prospects of a battle?  How often do bad rolls just totally mess with it?

I don’t know….The way I read it (for the germans at least) They are probably going to buy heavy on infantry the first 2-3 turns to build a strong defesive position in europe and then a mix of Tanks and Mech to move forward and catch up with the men walking to the eastern front.  Nice breather in there from Russia to start with…

Anyway…I challenge anybody to win a game either as allies or axis without buying some tanks for either germany or russia…hell, a couple of tanks coming out of south africa will go a long way for the UK in africa too for that matter.

@Plasticdeathbydice:

Anyway…I challenge anybody to win a game either as allies or axis without buying some tanks for either germany or russia…hell, a couple of tanks coming out of south africa will go a long way for the UK in africa too for that matter.

My point exactly. For those all in favor of Mechs and Artillery… I would like to see you win, or do well, as Russia or Germany. After all, this discussion should be based predominantly on the war between these two, since this is where the main tank buying will be.

Even if tanks cost 6, that doesn’t mean you can win the war without them… infantry and artillery (even mechanized infantry) attacking the enemies infantry will lose all the time… partly because you will never have enough artillery to cover all your infantry units and bring their attack up to a two. And even if you did, engaging in an even battle is never a good idea for the attacker… you’d like to have more units than your opponent, or ones that roll better. If two guys are playing Russia and Germany… the guy who buys tanks is gonna win. I’d like to prove it by playing someone who will buy few if any tanks… but I cannot.

Feels so nice to be quoted….at least when the person quoting you agrees!

@Plasticdeathbydice:

Feels so nice to be quoted….at least when the person quoting you agrees!

That is rare.

Sorry mates, i’ll stick with my mech inf with art and a crapton of planes as backup.  Germany can afford planes and they serve a dual purpose at keeping the US/UK honest.  Russia cannot afford to waste IPCs on tanks as they have a limited income and should try to maximize build quantity or risk being overran by unit count alone.

With this setup I foresee a slow german infantry push being backed up with air and mech as they get further from the home factories.

@bugoo:

Germany can afford planes and they serve a dual purpose at keeping the US/UK honest.  Russia cannot afford to waste IPCs on tanks as they have a limited income and should try to maximize build quantity or risk being overran by unit count alone.

Germany can afford planes but not tanks? Why is this? Planes do serve a dual purpose in offense against Russia and deterrant against invasion… but you will never have enough planes to go around for attacking and deterring. Not unless you buy planes at the expense of buying land units… in which case you can’t win anyway. Planes are also way more valuble than tanks, so their commitment to battle will be even more careful. Planes still cost nearly double that of tanks and they cannot hold territory, meaning your infantry units are subjected to counter-attack only rolling on 2s. Not good if Russia has tanks or planes.

Maximizing build quantity has never been enough for Russia, they need quality units just as much as Germany, though in lesser quantity.Traversing the Russian front will require speed, as it is huge, and it will require Germany to bring some firepower along; firepower that can occupy territories: tanks, not planes. While Ivan has to be agressive, he does not have to advance. Jerry has to do both, because if Russia can hold him off, the combined Allied weight will make him crumble. Germany still needs tanks the premier offensive weapon and Russia needs them as important supplements to defense and hit-run attacks.

Unit count alone won’t win the war for Germany… they need more superior units: more tanks, more fighters. But mainly more tanks.

What I mean by that is i could buy 2 mechs and a fighter for 18, or three tanks for 18.  I’ll take the mechs/fighter any day of the week.  And i’ll still have more units than russia because of my income being nearly double his, and I won’t have to waste as many units defending my coasts because UK/US need more surface ships to protect there transports.

Inf, art, mechs, and planes will win the day in russia for germany.  You don’t need tanks when you can afford to buy a fighter for every tank your opponent purchases, along with a mech.

@bugoo:

What I mean by that is i could buy 2 mechs and a fighter for 18, or three tanks for 18.  I’ll take the mechs/fighter any day of the week.  And i’ll still have more units than russia because of my income being nearly double his, and I won’t have to waste as many units defending my coasts because UK/US need more surface ships to protect there transports.

Inf, art, mechs, and planes will win the day in russia for germany.  You don’t need tanks when you can afford to buy a fighter for every tank your opponent purchases, along with a mech.

2 mech and ftr attack at 5 and defend at 8. 3 tanks attack at 9 and defend at 9. Same number of hits. Tanks can defend the captured territory, fighters cannot

@calvinhobbesliker:

@bugoo:

What I mean by that is i could buy 2 mechs and a fighter for 18, or three tanks for 18.  I’ll take the mechs/fighter any day of the week.  And i’ll still have more units than russia because of my income being nearly double his, and I won’t have to waste as many units defending my coasts because UK/US need more surface ships to protect there transports.

Inf, art, mechs, and planes will win the day in russia for germany.  You don’t need tanks when you can afford to buy a fighter for every tank your opponent purchases, along with a mech.

2 mech and ftr attack at 5 and defend at 8. 3 tanks attack at 9 and defend at 9. Same number of hits. Tanks can defend the captured territory, fighters cannot

Alright, alright … we’ll have to test theories and find out. Good luck.

@LHoffman:

Alright, alright … we’ll have to test theories and find out. Good luck.

That’s right.  Thanks guys for making me take another look at mech.  I see they will indeed be pretty sweet.

@calvinhobbesliker:

2 mech and ftr attack at 5 and defend at 8. 3 tanks attack at 9 and defend at 9. Same number of hits. Tanks can defend the captured territory, fighters cannot

Better skew for the mech + ftr  :-P

Just kidding, obviously the tanks are stronger in this situation. But the fighter buy has some advantages too: more mobility, keeping allied fleets at bay, better trading zone opportunity, no need to sacrifice costly units (tank vs mech). Fighters rarely die in land battle, so after a while you’ll end up with a nice stack staring at moskva  :-D

Moreso, for 2 extra IPC’s, you get the omnipotent bomber  :-o Maximum mobility, and in a dull moment there’s always so;ething to strategically bomb raid. Add in a tac fighter every now and then… I like it! Air + mech, a powerful combo for Germany?

I for one think Tanks are finally balanced, a cost of 6 is perfect.  They were way too cheap before.  We had too many games were tanks ruled and they often would comprise a countries sole purchase.  Now things are as they should, Tanks are still useful for winning combats but inf will win the wars as is true in real life.

@allweneedislove:

no tanks are ever purchased in pac40 because china is not allowed to, uk is too poor and island hopping nature of usa, anzac and japan.

Hey, A&A is almost starting to be historically correct! :-D

Seriously, I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

I also believe tanks are still a great buy. If you used to buy say three tanks in a given turn that would cost you 15. Now it costs 18. One infantry of a difference. I don’t really see the problem. Again, it’s more historically correct. Undoubtedly some fewer tanks will be purchased, but the huge masses of infantry far outnumbered tank corps and armies in WWII, so no problem. A tank is still the only land unit with a considerable punch that is also capable of holding a territory (that is, useful in defense too; unlike aircraft that have to land in a previously held space).