UK1 @ SZ 95 scenario question

@Dany:

He said that 2 subs go to 106 and 2 go to 109, that leaves 1 sub and 1 fig witch is not enough to take on 110 or 111. I would prolly not mind 109 and instead strike 110 with 3 subs and 1 fig and hope for the best if i was going to hit the RAF with the rest of my airforce.

Thats a very good idea.  I tend to have target fixation on TRS when I’m the Axis.  3 SUBS(no surprise) plus the FTR from Norway(3,2,2,2) vs 1BB and 1DD(4,2) is a little more than 50/50.  Its worth it if you sink the BB and not lose the German FTR.

While all this Sealion discussion is fun to think about…IMHO I don’t think Sealion (G2 or G3) is a real option.

Most of these Sealion strategies go something like this:

1.  Germany buys carrier and 2 trns

2.  All Germany subs and planes attack U.K. navy

3.  Germany army fights without air support in France.

then on G2 buy more trns and navy and attack with all airforce and amphibious on G3.

The result of all this will be the following:
1.  Germany loses all its inf and mech and art in France on G1

2.  Germany loses all their subs in Atlantic on G1

3.  Germany spends most of its IPCs on navy and invasion force on G1 and G2

4.  Germany loses all their airforce on G3

maybe you take U.K. and maybe you don’t…it’s about a 50/50, but it doesn’t really matter because the Americans will take either U.K. or Normaday if not both on US5 and the Soviets have been buying stacks of inf, art, and mech while you bought transports.  You have absolutely nothing left defending Europe except your G3 and G4 purchases.  Game over on turn 5 or 6…and yes the U.K. still sinks the Italtin fleet in SZ 95, which stymies Italian efforts in the Mediterranean.  I think a lot of people are greatly over estimating the prowess of Italy and Germany.

I agree with panzerjager it wouldn’t make sense for Sealion to be that easy for Germany and still be competitive on all fronts.  Balance must be maintained or one of the fronts will surely collapse on the Germans.

Why dont we who disagree on this thread play a game?  There is already a game being set up on another thread.  We have the maps, know what the forces are, etc…  We can use an internet die roller that reports to each player what the rolls are.
The (pro-SZ95/Sea Lion is a bad idea) people play the Allies, those who think Sea Lion is a good idea play the Axis.
Any takers?  I’ll be glad to play Germany or Italy, or both if we dont have enough players.

Personally I think you’d be much better off simply securing the Atlantic with a surface fleet and trying to hold it as long as possible.  This would not be difficult, will deny the UK an NO, and you have a good chance at some good convoy raiding as well.  This is not to kill the UK, but to negate them as a threat.  This will also give Italy more time to get rolling in the south.

Kill all UK boats turn 1 that are around england, build an AC, DD, sub, then on turn 2 build what you must to maintain the advantage, with a few transports to keep the threat. With any luck with you stalling UK/US, Italy can get rolling and be a real thorn in Russia’s side to help you out.  A good amount of INF and plane purchasing can also be used to keep russia honest.

I mean honestly, how long would it take to knock UK down to an income of like 10?  Plus later in the game you can use that fleet in the baltic to help get troops north.  And you should have nearly double the US income pre-war, and be close to it once war is declared.

Im happy to play but if possible i would lite to w8 to after my exam next week, im already spending to much time on threse forums as it is  :-P

@miamibeach:

@Dany:

If you attack the UK with your air, how much would survive. 1 is taken out by aa and maybe another 2-3 by the units in the UK. That leaves you with 4 air units. The UK can then block the north route around England with 1 DD, build 1 fig and 2 dd and put them with the rest of the fleet in 110. That would be 2 BB, 1 AC, 1 CA, 3 DD, 1 fig, 1 tac. Chanses that you get to invade are not that good. I do not think there is a way to get good odds on the UK in a G2 Sea lion, i think the G3 is the way to go if you want to do it. It has to cost more then 1 AC and 2 TRS to do a Sea lion or it would be to good.

When it comes to Egypt i would not land with troops in Transjordan as they are easy to kill for the UK. If the Italians mass all. If the fleet moves the Italians cant build any TRS in I1 asthe french can kill them and if the UK moved planes to Africa on UK1 the TRS cant move by itself. Holding Egypt is viable if there is a Sea lion on its way and Italy goes for it with all its force,  to hold it you need to be able to build a Minor there in UK1. If that is not a possbilty, you back up with your forces untill you meet up the units from Persia and the units from South Africa. With these and the planes you should be able to turn the tide.

If all the Axis are going for the UK the UK cant hold everything. I would give up India as it is impossible to hold anyways and the units there are very valuable in Africa/the Med. You will have a hard time but your allies will sort it out.

That is a good naval defence for UK, however the UK itself is still very weakly defended which means you have given Germany a real chance to do Sea Lion on G3 that otherwise would not exist…giving Germany a chance to build interesting stuff with its 40(at least)+17(france)=57 IPC’s.  More TRS, naval units.  The posibility could be that units from the current fleet:2SUBS, 2TRS(supported by air) go to SZ111, take out the UK DD and land 2INF/2ARM in Scotland…while building naval units of 1CV(2FTR’s), 2TRS, 1SUB with the 1BB, 1 CV(2FTR’s), 1CA already there.  G3, Germany can then take out the UK fleet, and land 4 more units and have more aircraft.  The main benefit of pausing Sea Lion is that it makes it harder for Germany to prepare for USSR.

However, you have made my main point which is that the UK CV/TAC/DD at Gibraltar must come north to deal with the Germans, and not sink the Italians in SZ95.

As for Transjordan, what would the UK attack with on its turn 2 coming from Egypt?  Whatever it is will weaken the defense of Egypt by more than what the 1INF and 1ARM would be if they were on offense.

Italians dont need to build a TRS on their first turn.  What planes can UK send to Egypt on turn 2?  There is already 1 in Egypt that I would keep there.  If UK builds an IC in Egypt, then what is it building to defend UK with from Sea Lion?  If UK builds an IC in Egypt, they are building it for Italy.  I’m not saying Italy has Egypt forever, and I think an orderly withdraw from Egypt might be the best thing to do if you know it cant be held.

Dont forget the 28+ air that Japan has…I have not read anyone taking those assets into account.

In my original point i said that there are situations when you will want to bring your CV back to England, the air raid on England G1 might be one of those scenarios. I not trying to claim that striking the Italian fleet is a superior move in every situation. Iva also argued that the G3 Sea Lion is the way to go if you want to succeed, just as you are arguing now. As said tho, i think it will be expensive for the Germans and that they will get real problems with the Russians.

In the case of a landing in TJ, i would hit it in force from Egypt. In UK1 i also think an intresing move is to send one inf from West India into Perisa and then on UK2 take out Iraq. This scenario looses you Egypt but it conserves your troops while reinforcements arrive.

When it comes to Japan having a J1 attack makes Sea Lion harder as the Americans will get involved much sooner. The 28 air units will still need a few turns to get in position to strike India.

My G3 Sea Lion suggestion was only in response to your UK builds.  I still prefer G2 for Sea Lion.

Germany must go after the RAF on G1…so I guess that means you would not take the Gibraltar fleet into SZ95?..which was my point all along.  Its needed more to help save UK than attack the Italian fleet.

I’m not in a hurry to play this week…take your exams.  By the way…this morning the global rules are posted…so we have everything we need for a game.

Any other players interested in testing their strategy?  The minimum we need(my suggestion) are 5 players:
UK/France
US/ANZAC
USSR/China
Germany/Italy
Japan

If its me and Dany, we need at least 3 more.  I prefer someone who is still stubburn about attacking the Italians in SZ95 as the UK player.  I dont care what country(s) I play, but prefer to play an Axis country just because I’m trying to prove a point here.

I’d love to give the U.K. a try.  Count me in.

Panzerjager…only play the UK, or are you open to other Allied countries?

Guys, I want to post our game on the Global thread to see if others are interested as well.

I could play any of the allies. Russia would be fun.

@Yoper:

The Germans transports one builds in the Baltic can be used to attempt a Sea Lion attack, but they can be used just as effectively to go East.

The main thing that the “threat” of a Sea Lion attack can do though is to tie up a lot of UK IPCs in the defense of the Home Isles instead of being used in other parts of the world.  Once the Germans turn towards the USSR, then the UK player must figure out how to then transfer those units into the battle.

Once you have time to study the initial set up, you will see that the Germans can take out almost all of the RN, especially around the Home Isles.  Which means that moving the CV and DD up to England is problematic.  The only way to cover that is an all-out naval buy.  An all-out naval buy means no ground units for island defense.  And the navy you buy may still not be enough to deal with the combined might of the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.

Hitting the Italians with UK Med. naval assets and air will look better and better to you in time.  Trust me on this one.

Thanks. That seems to be the best way to not lose Africa.

And not losing Africa is going to be important when trying to recover from defending against a Sea Lion threat/attempt.  I think a German Sea Lion threat will probably be one of the standard moves, because even if you don’t follow through, building extra transports and a carrier for the Germans isn’t a set back at all and it helps a lot if it causes the UK player to panic, or at least forces them to play conservatively for the first turn or two since if they don’t you can knock them out.

@miamibeach:

If you take the CV/TAC/DD and go after the Italians, Sea Lion takes out UK.  Does that sound like a good trade to you?  If that does, then I would be bored playing you in AA since I would kick you butt every game.

a succesfull sealion is like a non-wodkadrinking russian: it’s theoretically possible, but really…

@miamibeach:

Turn 1(UK)…attack German fleet in SZ112:
Germany= 1CV(2FTR’s), 1BB(damaged?), 1CA, 1SUB, 3TRS.[4,4,4,3,2,2].  
vs
UK= 1CV(1TAC), 2BB’s, 2CA’s, 1DD.[4,4,3,3,3,2]

How is that 20%???  Looks like 50% to me.

Yes, UK builds 9INF.  Is that enough vs 3INF/3ARM/1BB/1Bomber/2FTRs?  Why would you take that chance to lose UK?  Hit the German fleet with the entire UK fleet…at the very least Germany will have 2 less FTR’s in the attack on UK.  Its the only chance UK has vs Sea Lion.

The 2 extra FTR’s are not enough to stop Italy from taking Egypt on turn two.  The 2nd Italian fleet with TRS(1INF/1ARM) will invade Transjordan, the two Italian FTR’s in Italy move to N. Africa.  The only way to stop Italy from taking Egypt on turn two is to not lose the UK TAC/FTR(originally from Egypt) in the naval battles, and send them all including FTR’s from India into Egypt.  In which case the Italians wait one extra turn…on turn two align Iraq, take out Sudan and get about 5-6 more INF into the battle on turn 3.

If you go with your Med strategy as UK, then in the mean time Japan is salivating over an easy India, and Sea Lion may have taken out UK.  The UK cant build any more units, the Germans can use their Sea Lion TRS vs the Russians, and have about 17(France)+29(UK)=46 extra IPC’s to build for Russia.  Not to mention the 46(at least) economy Germany now has.  A very depressing game for the Allies.

and then a russian bomber appears from a normal neutral sweden and takes over germany…

you plans too are based on nothing
like in your sealion, did you include the RAF?
the egypt force is strong enough to stand against italy on it’s own for few rounds with taranto raid

UK needs to buy 9 infantry AND move the block fleet to SZ 110 ( CV , DD, 2 fighters).

Tactical bomber moves to UK with 3rd fighter.

This saves UK, but also gets an exchange with German air making Sealion G3 much harder.

But it at least saves the Italian fleet if Germany does buy 1 CV and 2 AP on G1

@Imperious:

UK needs to buy 9 infantry AND move the block fleet to SZ 110 ( CV , DD, 2 fighters).

Tactical bomber moves to UK with 3rd fighter.

This saves UK, but also gets an exchange with German air making Sealion G3 much harder.

But it at least saves the Italian fleet if Germany does buy 1 CV and 2 AP on G1

Problem with blocking SZ110 is that Germany can take Scotland to stack for a joined attack on England in a next turn… i have found SZ12 to be the crucial zone to block (less easy since it is 1 more step away…). Local blocking just stops costals, no?

With the German naval station in Western Germany you can bypass 110 and do a landing in seazone 109.

@RogertheShrubber:

With the German naval station in Western Germany you can bypass 110 and do a landing in seazone 109.

That too, although such an attack (if survived) is easier to block the next turn, where they german fleet has to go all the way back again (while even if they take UK they cannot use the naval bases there)