German strategy for building AC

[goldenbearflyer]

I need more detail about how you play Germany, because I have trouble with it.  Caveat:  I’ve played Revised only a couple of times; my experience is mainly with the original version.  Although certain changes helped the Axis, the Allies also gained advantages here and there.  Also, I have no experience with the bid system.  (This post was intended to follow up on the “Axis and Allies first turns - Germany” thread started by newpaintbrush, but I have so many questions and I didn’t want to kidnap that thread.)

First, let’s assume R1 took Belo and W. Russia, left Karel and Arch wide open, but left big stack in W. Russia (3Inf, 1art, 4arm) and heavily fortified Caucasus (e.g. 7inf, 1art, 2F) – I based that assumption on newpaintbrush’s R1 option to attack Belo and W. Russia and used the battle simulator at http://www.dskelly.com/misc/aa/aasim.html to estimate results.  (F=fighter, art=artillery, arm=armor, inf=infantry)

Second, I’m intrigued by all the talk about G1 AC; I’ve always thought building any navy at all would doom Germany, but so many folks seem to disagree, so I guess I better try it. :wink:  So let’s start with 1AC, 8 inf for the sake of argument.

Questions:

1.  I figure I should take Karel, but from where and with how much inf?  from Norway?  with 1, 2 or 3 inf?  This is important, because…
2.  Should I reinforce Norway with 2inf from Germany, or move those 2inf to Eastern Europe.  If I reinforce it, should add fighters?  Except…
3.  Which fighters should land on AC?  from Norway and E. Europe?
4.  I assume I should take back Belo (which should have only 1inf based on the simulator), and I would do this with 2inf, 1F?
5.  After all that, the most I can leave in Ukraine is 5inf, 1art, 2arm, 1F, but Ukraine then faces a huge combined stack from W. Russia/Caucasus R2.  Do I pull 2arm back into Balkans for a counter-attack?
6.  How much to leave on W. Europe?  I would like to leave at least 3inf, 2arm, 2F, possibly 3F.
7.  I assume I take Egypt with 2inf, 2arm, 1F, so S. Europe has only 1inf to move into W. Europe or Balkans.  (Note:  the battle simulator says on average I will be left with but 1arm in Egypt, 2 if I’m lucky.  I move 1inf 1art from Algeria to Libya during NC.
8.  Where to place 8inf?  1-2 in S. Europe, 6-7 in Germany?

I really enjoy reading all your posts, everyone, and I certainly appreciate there are many good strategies and no one “best” strategy, which is why it’s a great game.  However, many of the strategies I see discussed could address these types of details in order to be more helpful to less experienced players like me.  Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the above.

[Nix]

If your going for an Gemran AC “strat”, and assuming the case yoou posted you “should” inho do the following.

Buy; 1 AC, 8 Inf

Send; Sub SZ8 to SZ13, 3 Figs (Western Europe, Norway, Germany) to kill UK BB (this must be done) (might want a 4th fig, depends on bravery)

Send BB, trn SZ14 to SZ15 (bring 1 inf, 1 arm to egypt with trn)

1 Inf, 1 art Libya to Egypt
1 bmb Germany to Egypt
1 Fig Balkans to Egypt (lands in Libya)

If Karelia is empty move 1 inf Norway to Karelia (and if so send the eastern europe Fig to SZ13 to be sure)

2 Inf, eastern europe to Belorussia, 1 fig ukraine to Belorussia

In non combat retreat all Ukraine forces to Eastern europe (let 1 inf stay as a road block)

2 inf norway to Eastern europe (leave it unguarded), all Balkan forces to eastern europe.

the 3 inf´s in Germany could be wise to put in Western to deter a UK landing there in UK1 (since you´ll only have 3 Figs there.)
1 inf,1  art Algeria to Libya.

It should look like something like this after all is done;

*** Western Europe (Weu)
1 AA
5 Inf
2 Arm
3 Ftr

*** Southern Europe (Seu)
1 Art
1 AA
1 IC
1 Inf

*** Germany (Ger)
1 IC
1 AA
8 Inf

*** Eastern Europe (Eeu)
5 Arm
6 Inf
1 Art

*** Karelia S.S.R. (Len)
1 Inf

*** Ukraine S.S.R. (Ukr)
1 Inf

*** Belorussia (Bel)
2 Inf

*** Anglo Egypt (Egy)
2 Arm

*** Libya (Lib)
1 Ftr
1 Inf
1 Art
1 Bmb

*** Baltic Seazone (BAL/Z5)
2 Ftr
1 Trn
2 Sub
1 Des
1 AC

*** East Mediterian Seazone (EMD/Z15)
1 Trn
1 BB

[Nix]

Additional explanations:

The reason you leave the 1 inf, 1 art in Southern Europe is that you might want to pick them up and transport them with the Mediterranean fleet, either to Egypt on G2 to attack the UK counter, or maybe to Algeria to engage a landing there.

also don´t be afraid to leave Norway “free” if Uk takes it, they put their navy at risk, and you´ll kill it, and retake Norway either the same round or at G3.

but the basic principle if the allies goes against Germany is to stall them as long as it takes to Germany and Japan to do an 1, 2 punch against Moscow.

[polywog]

In line with the AC “strat”: If you’re afraid of the large stack in west Russsia/Caucasus against Ukraine, pull all of the forces there (except one INF) back to Eastern Europe. I think Nix’s posting more or less shows this. The logic: as Germany (or the Axis in general) IMHO you’re FAR better off marshalling your forces and chosing where to attack rather than risking your good offensive units on defense.

If you’re lucky, the aircraft carrier/west europe FIG stack (3 is good R1) buys you a round or two against an allied invasion of Europe. Use the time to build a solid stack of units in Eastern Europe to exploit any mistake the Russians make and to make very small scale INF attacks. If the Russians split their forces between WRU and CAU, they’re in trouble. Though lots of pressure is good, make sure not to over extend and lose too many units or you’ll be in serious trouble when US/UK begin their invasion.

I’ve had success with this sort of offensive defense with Germany, but keep in mind it’s worthless without an aggressive Japan.

[akreider2]

I don’t think you need that big a stack on Western Europe.  Just enough to hold it with 50% odds.

Sometimes i wonder if it wouldn’t be best to leave Western Europe empty the entire game as it tends to mess up the Allies convoy if they take it (particularly the US), and because hitting it with a good counterattack and being able to put troops to the Russian front is helpful.  If anyone takes it, pummel them and hold it for a round.  Then let them take it, pummel and hold and repeat.

[newpaintbrush]

(This post was intended to follow up on the “Axis and Allies first turns - Germany” thread started by newpaintbrush, but I have so many questions and I didn’t want to kidnap that thread.)

Feel free to threadjack.  It is a proud tradition!

First, let’s assume R1 took Belo and W. Russia, left Karel and Arch wide open, but left big stack in W. Russia (3Inf, 1art, 4arm) and heavily fortified Caucasus (e.g. 7inf, 1art, 2F) – I based that assumption on newpaintbrush’s R1 option to attack Belo and W. Russia and used the battle simulator at http://www.dskelly.com/misc/aa/aasim.html to estimate results.  (F=fighter, art=artillery, arm=armor, inf=infantry)

If you were playing against me, you’d see a very lightly fortified Caucasus.  If you do end up leaving 1 art 4 arm in W. Russia, your opponent might just decide to build 8 tanks and run fighters into West Russia, and follow up with strategic bombing.  (This is the “kitchen sink” attack that takes advantage of an underdefended West Russia).  If Russia’s attack power is stifled, Germany can hold more territory in Europe.  Germany often has to make significant sacrifices elsewhere, but a maniac Germany is pretty scary for Russia.  I find it far less exciting (but far safer) to just fortify West Russia, and punish Germany if they reach for the Cauasus.  (Look at the board, you can punish Germany pretty badly if they try for Caucasus)

Second, I’m intrigued by all the talk about G1 AC; I’ve always thought building any navy at all would doom Germany, but so many folks seem to disagree, so I guess I better try it.  So let’s start with 1AC, 8 inf for the sake of argument.

Some of the best players I know prefer not to use an aircraft carrier.  I use it sometimes, sometimes not.  Not that I’m saying I’m good.  Although I am.  Or am I?  I like to keep people guessing.

Questions:

1.  I figure I should take Karel, but from where and with how much inf?  from Norway?  with 1, 2 or 3 inf?  This is important, because…
2.  Should I reinforce Norway with 2inf from Germany, or move those 2inf to Eastern Europe.  If I reinforce it, should add fighters?  Except…
3.  Which fighters should land on AC?  from Norway and E. Europe?
4.  I assume I should take back Belo (which should have only 1inf based on the simulator), and I would do this with 2inf, 1F?
5.  After all that, the most I can leave in Ukraine is 5inf, 1art, 2arm, 1F, but Ukraine then faces a huge combined stack from W. Russia/Caucasus R2.  Do I pull 2arm back into Balkans for a counter-attack?
6.  How much to leave on W. Europe?  I would like to leave at least 3inf, 2arm, 2F, possibly 3F.
7.  I assume I take Egypt with 2inf, 2arm, 1F, so S. Europe has only 1inf to move into W. Europe or Balkans.  (Note:  the battle simulator says on average I will be left with but 1arm in Egypt, 2 if I’m lucky.  I move 1inf 1art from Algeria to Libya during NC.
8.  Where to place 8inf?  1-2 in S. Europe, 6-7 in Germany?

What I typically do is, if the Ukraine fighter survived, it and the German bomber attack Anglo-Egypt.  If you had a bid, and put units in Africa, you can usually get a G1 lock on Anglo-Egypt with transported units from Anglo-Egypt and the Libyan units, with 1 inf 3 tank or 2 inf 2 tank surviving.  (It’s pretty expensive for UK to take back).

If the Ukraine fighter didn’t survive, and if I had a bid in Africa, I’ll probably use a fighter and the German bomber against Anglo-Egypt again and use the German Med fleet to attack Gibraltar along with the German sub from the Atlantic.  (This helps preserve the German sub)

Of the remaining fighters, 3 land in Western Europe, 2 on the German carrier.  You could possibly put 4 in W. Europe and 1 on the carrier, but it’s risky if UK decides to go for broke and attack the Baltic fleet.  The thing is, you want to leave fighters in W. Europe, but you don’t want to lose fighters from W. Europe, so you leave like 2 inf 3 tanks AA gun there too.

Do not stack Ukraine early.  That is bad for the Germans.

I usually send the 1 S. Europe infantry to West Europe, and use the Baltic transport to send 2 infantry from West Europe to Karelia.  Karelia usually ends up with a lotta beef on it for me.

When you place, ALWAYS place the maximum in Germany, minus X units for your transport.  If you can clearly see that you are not going to be using, say, a tank in Western Europe, and you know you want that tank in Africa next turn, AND you know that the Allies are almost certainly not going to invade Western Europe, you put 2 infantry in S. Europe.  Because maybe the Allies will invade Western Europe after all, you see. . . . usually, in effect, you put 2 units in S. Europe for the Med transport, and EVERYTHING else in Germany, because things from Germany are far better placed.  (Germany-Eastern Europe-Belorussia/Ukraine/Karelia, as opposed to S. Europe-Balkans-Ukraine or Belorussia.  Or is that right.  Something like that).

I really enjoy reading all your posts, everyone, and I certainly appreciate there are many good strategies and no one “best” strategy, which is why it’s a great game.  However, many of the strategies I see discussed could address these types of details in order to be more helpful to less experienced players like me.  Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the above.

I am really not good with the Axis.  Against any particular player, I am likely to win with Allies and lose with Axis.  Unless my opponent makes mistakes, then I can win with Axis.  But in games I win with Axis, I can usually identify a clear mistake my opponent did.  In games I win with Allies, I often don’t see that whatever my opponent did would have made a big difference.  It’s pretty easy to win with Allies IMHO . . .

[Jennifer]

I actually just build 1 infantry in S. Europe and leave the Artillery or Armor I didn’t use in my amphibious assault of Egypt there for the next round.  Gives me an added Infantry forward (as in 1 space away from the IC)

Just a thought.

You can also build 2 INfnatry in S. Europe and 6 in Germany.  not like Berlin is under threat of invasion on Germany Round 1, you know.

[goldenbearflyer]

Wow, ask and you shall receive!  Thanks, everyone.

OK, last night with limited time I mocked up round 1.  I did indeed end up with a board looking much like Nix’s heading into SU2, except I may have made a mistake by leaving 3inf in Belo, because E.Eur has only 4inf.  Egypt went so well the Germans lost only 1inf, so there’s 1inf 2arm there plus 1inf 1art 1F in Libya.  Africa will fall quickly.  I like to park the bomber back in Germany.

Here are the problem areas:  after SU2 the Russians hold:  W.Rus 6inf, 2art, 4arm, 2F(UK) amd Cauc 5inf, 1art, 2F, Ukraine 6inf, Belo 2inf, plus 5inf reserve in Russia and 2inf in Kaz, so their lines are not exactly paper thin.  That means SU has 24inf 3art 4arm 2F + 2F(UK) on or near the front, whereas the Germans have 14inf 1art 5 arm 2F(AC) between E.Eur/Ger/Balk/SZ5.  (5 extra inf or 3arm instead of the AC would come in handy.)  UK1 I lost 4 IPCs to sbr, so 38 IPCs to 28 for SU is not a huge lead; even with extra IPCs, it will take several turns to match the numbers of the SU, let alone gain the advantage.  US2 threatens sbr as well.

The navy looks great in SZ5 with 1AC 2sub 1DD 1tr, and that will let me funnel 2 extra ground units per turn into Karel, so I see the benefit there.  However, after R2 SZ8 has: UK 1BB 3tr 1AC w/ US 2F, US 2tr 1DD, SU 1sub.  Even with 3F in W.Eur and 1bom, I would be hard-pressed to attack that on G2 – Allies can give up 1DD 1sub 1 hit on BB before I kill anything meaningful, whereas I would probably lose several F.  By the time I would move out of SZ5 within range of SZ8, I assume the Allies will have even more strength.  I guess the point is to stall the Allies’ navies, at least temporarily, to buy time for Japan, but I will probably lose airpower I cannot afford to replace.

US2 could land in Africa or Norway, with a second wave already waiting in E.US.  UK2 threatens Norway with 4inf 1art 1arm, so if I take Karel in force I’ll be surrounded.  Not to mention W.Eur may need reinforcements.  As far as the argument I’ve heard that UK must worry about the Kreigsmarine, I wonder why; UK will build at least 4inf 1art 1arm each turn anyway for its transports and the US may park its units there as a staging ground, so I see no actual threat of SeaLion.  Add to that the 8IPC fewer ground units for each transport Germany would build, and SU only grows stronger.

I understand this plan requires an aggressive Japan to move against SU.  Unfortunately, UK sunk the Kwang transport and the SZ45 sub and holds India with 4inf 1F.  Of course J1 took China and sunk the US at Pearl, but only 2 ground units could then be moved onto Asia during NC.  It will take time for Japan to mount a sizable threat from the east.

I think I see why I need to learn about the bid system! :-D

[newpaintbrush]

Bid system:

Player A:  I like the Allies.  So if you be Axis, I’ll let you start with um, 3 extra IPC.

Player B:  Can I use those IPCs to put units on the board?

Player A:  Sure.

Player B:  Well, I like your theory.  But I want Axis.  So I bid 7 IPC.  You can put 7 IPC of units on the board before the game begins.

Player A:  No wai.  I want teh Alliez.  I give you um 8 IPC.

Player B:  Are we playing LHTR?

Player A:  Wat?

Player B:  Larry Harris Tournament Rules

Player A:  Wat?

Player B:  OK, I guess not.  So I roll for techs at the beginning of the turn, and they go into effect immediately?

Player A:  Um ya.

Player B:  okz0rz.

(On Germany’s turn:)

Player B:  okokok Imma roll 8 dice for Long Range Aircraft.  Thanks for letting me put that German transport in the Baltic.  Prepare to die London!

Player A:  Wat?!

Player B:  hehehehehe!

Player A:  Gdmit!

–

And that is how you bid!

[newpaintbrush]

@goldenbearflyer:

OK, last night with limited time I mocked up round 1.  I did indeed end up with a board looking much like Nix’s heading into SU2, except I may have made a mistake by leaving 3inf in Belo, because E.Eur has only 4inf.  Egypt went so well the Germans lost only 1inf, so there’s 1inf 2arm there plus 1inf 1art 1F in Libya.  Africa will fall quickly.  I like to park the bomber back in Germany.

Depending on how many Russian fighters there are and the Allied Atlantic fleet situation, I may choose to leave anywhere from 0 to 3 infantry in a territory.  You leave 0 infantry if you want Russia to blitz the territory.  (You can blitz right back).  Usually, though, you want to leave at least 1 infantry in a territory to force Russia to commit forces to recapturing the territory.

Here are the problem areas:  after SU2 the Russians hold:  W.Rus 6inf, 2art, 4arm, 2F(UK) amd Cauc 5inf, 1art, 2F, Ukraine 6inf, Belo 2inf, plus 5inf reserve in Russia and 2inf in Kaz, so their lines are not exactly paper thin.  That means SU has 24inf 3art 4arm 2F + 2F(UK) on or near the front, whereas the Germans have 14inf 1art 5 arm 2F(AC) between E.Eur/Ger/Balk/SZ5.  (5 extra inf or 3arm instead of the AC would come in handy.)  UK1 I lost 4 IPCs to sbr, so 38 IPCs to 28 for SU is not a huge lead; even with extra IPCs, it will take several turns to match the numbers of the SU, let alone gain the advantage.  US2 threatens sbr as well.

What is “SU2”?  6 inf in Ukraine really doesn’t sound right for the start of Germany’s first turn.  So Germany would have had time to counter that Russian turn.

The navy looks great in SZ5 with 1AC 2sub 1DD 1tr, and that will let me funnel 2 extra ground units per turn into Karel, so I see the benefit there.  However, after R2 SZ8 has: UK 1BB 3tr 1AC w/ US 2F, US 2tr 1DD, SU 1sub.  Even with 3F in W.Eur and 1bom, I would be hard-pressed to attack that on G2 – Allies can give up 1DD 1sub 1 hit on BB before I kill anything meaningful, whereas I would probably lose several F.  By the time I would move out of SZ5 within range of SZ8, I assume the Allies will have even more strength.  I guess the point is to stall the Allies’ navies, at least temporarily, to buy time for Japan, but I will probably lose airpower I cannot afford to replace.

Yeah, the Baltic carrier is for stalling.  Basically, you sit on the Baltic fleet. If a small Allied fleet gets in range, you kick its ass with the mighty Luftwaffe.  If a big Allied fleet gets in range, you kick its ass with the Luftwaffe AND the German navy.  (You lose the German navy to the Allied air attack on the Allied turn, though).  Of course, the Allies might just build this gigantic air force and kick the Baltic navy’s ass.  That’s always a potential problem.  Not much you can do about it though.

US2 could land in Africa or Norway, with a second wave already waiting in E.US.  UK2 threatens Norway with 4inf 1art 1arm, so if I take Karel in force I’ll be surrounded.  Not to mention W.Eur may need reinforcements.  As far as the argument I’ve heard that UK must worry about the Kreigsmarine, I wonder why; UK will build at least 4inf 1art 1arm each turn anyway for its transports and the US may park its units there as a staging ground, so I see no actual threat of SeaLion.  Add to that the 8IPC fewer ground units for each transport Germany would build, and SU only grows stronger.

Sure, US can land early in Africa/Norway, but that’s just the way it goes.  If US commits its transports that early to Norway, though, you should be able to decimate the transports with Luftwaffe or Luftwaffe/navy.  If the US goes to Africa, possibly the same thing.  Remember, fighters should be based at Western Europe, or possibly, Norway.

Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem.  The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway.  Which means, basically - if they built a load of infantry, likely, then they can attack with their loads of infantry, but you should still be able to win because of reinforcements from Eastern Europe.  If the Allies built tanks, they won’t have a lot of numbers early, plus you can counter their attack on your turn and kill their expensive Allied tanks at minimal cost (paid in German infantry).  If the Allies built infantry and tanks and fighters, well, it’s not like that happens overnight.  Germany has plenty of time to respond.

SeaLion is not really “rawr, Imma eat London!”  It’s really more like “rawr, Imma eat London, or maybe whatever Allied fleet you have around London!  Also Imma eat Karelia as a snack.  Also other rawrish things!”  You say that London will produce 4 inf 1 art 1 tank a turn (I disagree, I would far rather go pure infantry most of the time), but really, if London is saving all that up, then what is happening on the rest of the board?  London is NOT sending those units to Europe (if London is depleted, Germany goes RAWR), London has to build a defensive fleet for those transports (or else the German fleet and Luftwaffe can go RAWR), etc. etc.

Which is not to say that I think SeaLion is a solid game plan, but I do think that SeaLion is a solid COUNTERTHREAT to some Allied moves.

I understand this plan requires an aggressive Japan to move against SU.  Unfortunately, UK sunk the Kwang transport and the SZ45 sub and holds India with 4inf 1F.  Of course J1 took China and sunk the US at Pearl, but only 2 ground units could then be moved onto Asia during NC.  It will take time for Japan to mount a sizable threat from the east.

Japan’s first turn, you build 3 transports and 1 tank.  Always.  Because I am a gen1us!  No, seriously, here’s why.  First, you can’t build four transports, you only have IPCs for three.  So you build three.  And you build a tank, because tanks are very flexible and threatening and blitzy and cool stuff, plus you can already fill your tranports with Jap infantry and stuff.  You don’t really need another artillery or another two infantry.  Use those Jap transports to pull infantry off the islands.  Now what happens?  If the Allies decide to go KJF, you have naval fodder (transports).  If the Allies decide to go KGF, you can build an industrial complex in French Indochina, and use those transports to pull infantry off the islands / take Australia, New Guinea, New Zealand, support Africa, etc.  I usually end up with an absolute minimum of 5 transports with Japan.  Often 7.

I think I see why I need to learn about the bid system! :-D

Yes, my young Padawan.

[goldenbearflyer]

What is “SU2”?Â

Sorry, SU=Soviet Union, so that’s the Soviet’s 2nd turn.  My latest post is talking about the way the board looks heading into Germany’s 2nd turn (“G2”).

Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem.  The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway.

Yes, but let’s say G2 takes Karel, but then SU3 moves 5-6inf into Arch, so even if Allies only hold Norway 1 round, can Germany defend Karel from both sides?  (Remember, W.Rus has 6inf 2art 4arm, so SU has offensive punch.)

My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).

[DarthMaximus]

@goldenbearflyer:

My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).

This is true.  And why you have to be careful about a G1 AC purchase.

I’m generally not a fan of it.

I think if Russia attacks both Wrus and Belo (or Ukr), you may run into trouble with the AC purchase.  Now if Russia took severe losses in the battles you might be able to make do with the minus 5 inf (cost of AC).
But if Russia does avg to good in the battles then you could be asking for trouble.

I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.

I think if you want to go the naval route then it my be best to try for the fleet unification (Sea Lion Scare) which means buying 3 trns instead.  or 1 AC, 1-2 trns.

You will be hurting bigtime against Russia early but at least you have a shot at this fleet possibly making it to the Med if combined with the sub, trn, bb near the Med.

IMO, the idea of the AC is more of a long term plan, thus you have to be patient early.  You may not be able to trade everything with Russia.  You’ve lost 5 inf, due to the AC, 2 more units to Egy on G1, plus 2 more units to Egy on G2 (if UK countered on UK1).  That is a lot of units, esp if Russia came out guns a blazing in Wrus and Belo/Ukr.

Ideally, you need to do well in Afr for the rounds 2-4, build up EE in the meantime and then make your move in rd 4-5 or so, once you’ve hopefully been able to reap the benefits of the Afr income and added boost of maybe holding/trading Nor longer than 1-2 rds.

All this being said if I went AC, 8 inf.

I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy.  (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE.

[goldenbearflyer]

And that is how you bid!

:lol: newpaintbrush, that’s funny, have you actually pulled off G1 London blitz in a tournament?!

I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.

Agreed, Darth.

I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy.  (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE.

Righto, that’s pretty much where I’m at.  Except there was no bid, so I’m at a disadvantage.  Anyway, tonight I’ll play a few more rounds and see if I can make this work for Germany…

[newpaintbrush]

@goldenbearflyer:

What is “SU2”?Â

Sorry, SU=Soviet Union, so that’s the Soviet’s 2nd turn.  My latest post is talking about the way the board looks heading into Germany’s 2nd turn (“G2”).

after SU2 the Russians hold:  W.Rus 6inf, 2art, 4arm, 2F(UK) amd Cauc 5inf, 1art, 2F, Ukraine 6inf, Belo 2inf, plus 5inf reserve in Russia and 2inf in Kaz, so their lines are not exactly paper thin.

That does look pretty similar to a lot of games I’ve seen, with the exception that Ukraine is pretty built up.  I assume that Germany DID hold Ukraine at the end of G1, but that Russia captured Ukraine on SU2.  (Germany shouldn’t let Ukraine be held by the Soviets after G1).  If that was the case, and Russia commits forces to the Ukraine, it runs into the problem of a German attack, which can come in two flavors.

The first flavor is Germany attacking with moderate forces, and pulling back; after Germany retreats, it moves infantry up to reinforce for a strong and threatening position.  Russia can’t counterattack (noplace to counterattack to because the German defense is so strong), and Russia loses maybe 4-5 infantry in exchange for 2-ish German infantry.

The second flavor is Germany going kitchen sink attack, and maniacally attacking Ukraine, trying to suck Russia’s forces into the west, while Japan attacks from the east.

Germany COULD get unlucky.  The worst case scenario for Germany is Germany attacking with moderate forces, ACCIDENTALLY wiping out all the infantry in Ukraine, thus being forced to take and hold the Ukraine, thus being vulnerable to Russian attack from West Russia and Ukraine.

Germany could ALSO get lucky.  The best case scenario for Germany is attacking with moderate forces, wiping out the Ukraine forces with no losses, and being able to reinforce Ukraine to a degree that Russia will find it horribly costly to attack.

Being surrounded at Karelia is not a problem.  The Allies usually do not build a mighty ATTACK force at Norway, they are usually just concerned with holding Norway.

Yes, but let’s say G2 takes Karel, but then SU3 moves 5-6inf into Arch, so even if Allies only hold Norway 1 round, can Germany defend Karel from both sides?  (Remember, W.Rus has 6inf 2art 4arm, so SU has offensive punch.)
Germany can hold Karelia for a long ass time, because infantry marched up from Germany into Eastern Europe hit Karelia next turn.  The major problem with Norway is that if Germany hits Norway early or late, that’s forces diverted from Russia.  Imagine, if you had a lot of German stuff in Karelia on G2, and attacked Norway; those units would march back to Karelia on G3, and into Archangel on G4.  But instead of attacking Karelia on G2, you COULD have attacked Archangel on G2 . . . two turns of difference.  Pretty significant.

What you mention is quite right, though.  It is a pain to try to hold Karelia.  But there are two things to keep in mind.  First, if Germany doesn’t control Karelia, the Allies can get a transport chain going from London to Archangel, and feed forces into Moscow.  This is a big pain in the ass for Germany.  Second, although that first point is true, Germany CAN afford to NOT beef up Karelia.  (There usually isn’t a problem with beefing up Karelia, but Germany can afford to go the southern route as well).

That is - if Germany beefs up at Ukraine, threatning W. Russia / Caucasus, Russia will almost certainly not be able to defend W. Russia, Caucasus, AND Archangel.  Russia will have to pull back from Archangel, or Russia will lose W. Russia (very bad positionally), or Caucasus (very bad because Germany can now drop four more units a turn right near Moscow).

Conversely, if Germany beefs up at Archangel, Russian forces concentrated at W. Russia/Caucasus or Ukraine have to be diverted north.

The trick is threatening Russia on the north and the south.

My main problem with the strategies discussed for Germany is that many of them seem to assume that SU is simply sitting around waiting to get crushed, whereas in my experience it grows quickly into a monster if not repeatedly attacked from turn 1 forward by German ground units, ground units and more ground units (with fighter support and possibly even sbr).

Hope you’re not talking about me . . .  I assume that SU runs around trying to snatch German territory, only giving ground when forced.  I often build 8 infantry in Moscow on SU1, but that’s an AGGRESSIVE move for control of Karelia/Belorussia/Ukraine on SU3.

@goldenbearflyer:

And that is how you bid!

:lol: newpaintbrush, that’s funny, have you actually pulled off G1 London blitz in a tournament?!

Nope.  The closest I’ve come was G2 SeaLion.  It was pretty obvious, but the Allies didn’t see it coming.  I won a mug.  :lol:

I think there are too many work arounds for the Allies for 1 AC for the Baltic to scare them.

Agreed, Darth.

Yeah, Caspian Sub Yahoo group has a paper mentioning that 2-3 transports could be a better Baltic purchase.  It’s interesting.  Right now, I haven’t really decided whether a carrier, 2-3 transports, or NO buy for the Baltic is better.  I don’t know if there’s a clear-cut answer; it probably depends on the Russian moves.  But I’m pretty sure that with more analysis, I can figure out the optimal response dependent on the situation.

I’d pull back everything to EE, leaving 1 inf in Ukr, I wouldn’t counter Belo, but I’d take Kar.
I’d hit Egy.  (I would have also placed my bid, if any, in Lib).
I’d also probably leave only inf and ftrs in WE, armor should be in EE to threaten against an aggressive Russia.
Place at least 2 inf in SE.

[General_D.Fox]

Yeah, in my last couple games I’ve played, both online and FTF, I haven’t bought an AC at all.  I’ve either bought a destroyer or nothing at all.  I haven’t really toyed with any other buy, because I’m slightly paranoid that if I buy more sea than groundpounders, I’ll be overrun by the Russian hordes screaming “URRAH!”  I might go back to the AC, who knows.  That 2 tranny buy sounds like a good one, just to distract the Allies while at the same time making it lighly more costly for them to attack me (although with only 3 “1s” and 1 “3”, just how costly for them attacking me is a big headscratcher.

[Jennifer]

Never seriously considered trannies in the Baltic.  Might be nice with all the added mobility around Europe.

[goldenbearflyer]

Jennifer:  Never seriously considered trannies in the Baltic.Â

Me, too.  Now this thread is truly on a parallel track with newpaintbrush’s.

newpaintbrush:  I assume that Germany DID hold Ukraine at the end of G1, but that Russia captured Ukraine on SU2.Â

Correct.

newpaintbrush:  But instead of attacking Karelia on G2, you COULD have attacked Archangel on G2

No, R (for Russia – punting on my “SU” designation! :-)) held Kar, Belo and W.Rus after R2.  Actually what I did G2 was attack Kar with 2inf 1ftr, wol.  I slow-played to allow more time to build up E.Eur, which had only 4inf 1art 5arm after G1, IIRC.  I felt I needed more inf before going into Kar with big stack.

newpaintbrush:  The trick is threatening Russia on the north and the south.

I wonder if I’m doing something wrong, because the numbers don’t add up for me to threaten both north and south.  After G3 I have ONE big stack in E.Eur:  10inf 1art 5arm, whereas R has big stacks in Cauc and W.Rus (combined 20inf 4art 4arm, IIRC).  I am trying to build up E.Eur, but that is the best I could do.  Anywhere I move my big stack could leave a void for R to exploit.  I need another turn for 12inf in Ger to advance.

newpaintbrush:  Hope you’re not talking about me

No, newpaintbrush, not you or really anyone in particular.  It’s just that I see so many posts from players who say they crush the Allies with this or that strategy but do not include the kinds of details I would need to understand their strategies, and that’s frustrating for me because I have never found a consistent way to do well with Germany, especially if Allies use KGF.  However, you, Darth, Nix, Jennifer, ncscswitch to name a few are very helpful with detailed advice! :-)

With that said, my AAR for today:  heading into J3 things are so-so for the Axis.  Panzers took all Africa except S.Afr, and Trans-Jordan fell, but Norway was lost, and R holds Ukr, Belo, W.Rus, Kar.  J has not hit its stride yet; just the simple move UK1 destroy J DD in SZ59 makes a significant impact on J’s early game! R3 took Sink back, so J has not made much headway.  IC in Kwang and 3trn in SZ61 should get things rolling soon.  UK has abandoned India, and US has all but abandoned Pacific due to KGF, so J should now expand.

Back to Germany: once I had a real navy, I wasn’t sure exactly what to do with it.  Don’t know if this was a huge mistake or not, but I decided to go for fleet unification.  G2 moved from SZ5 to SZ7; Russia went for block by moving sub to SZ12, preventing G3 unification in SZ13.  G3 moved SZ7 to SZ12, sinking sub wol.  1BB 1trn moved SZ15 to SZ13.  Can the Allies prevent unification?

Well, US has 1BB 1DD 3trn in SZ10, plus 4ftr from ACs in SZ8, so the Kriegsmarine will probably be sunk US3, albeit at a high price for the Americans.  The long-term consequences of that battle remain to be seen…

[squirecam]

@General_D.Fox:

Yeah, in my last couple games I’ve played, both online and FTF, I haven’t bought an AC at all.  I’ve either bought a destroyer or nothing at all.  I haven’t really toyed with any other buy, because I’m slightly paranoid that if I buy more sea than groundpounders, I’ll be overrun by the Russian hordes screaming "URRAH!"  I might go back to the AC, who knows.  That 2 tranny buy sounds like a good one, just to distract the Allies while at the same time making it lighly more costly for them to attack me (although with only 3 “1s” and 1 “3”, just how costly for them attacking me is a big headscratcher.

I’ve never understood the fear of being crushed by USSR if Germany has a fleet.

G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe. USSR has 24 Inf, 2 art, 4 arm, 2 fighters (6 inf of which are in the east and need time to march west).

USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany. This assumes, of course, that you are using your fleet to prevent UK/USA incursions.

Squirecam

[goldenbearflyer]

G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe.

Yes, but not all 23inf are in range to threaten Russia, and most players seem to advocate placing 3-4ftrs on WEur to discourage Allied incursions.

USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany.

Right, not “overrun” Germany but I’m just saying in the game I’m in now after G3 the Russians still outnumber my G inf almost 2-1 on the front lines.  Yes, Germany should catch up, but it takes time, primarily because I spent IPCs on naval units.  I just don’t see how I can prevent being placed in a 2-front war against Allies that know what they are doing.

[squirecam]

@goldenbearflyer:

G starts with 23 Inf, 3 art, 9 tanks and 6 fighters in Europe.

Yes, but not all 23inf are in range to threaten Russia, and most players seem to advocate placing 3-4ftrs on WEur to discourage Allied incursions.

USSR just doesnt have the troops to “overrun” Germany.

Right, not “overrun” Germany but I’m just saying in the game I’m in now after G3 the Russians still outnumber my G inf almost 2-1 on the front lines.  Yes, Germany should catch up, but it takes time, primarily because I spent IPCs on naval units.  I just don’t see how I can prevent being placed in a 2-front war against Allies that know what they are doing.

You are already IN a 2 front war to start with. The allies are going KGF. You have 2 options.

1. Try to get Russia while trading/defending WE and hoping you suceed faster than the allies can help….or
2. Trade Belo/UKR/Karelia with USSR while stopping the allies in the water.

If you try #2, you are NOT going to get past trading with USSR for the first few rounds. That’s just a fact of life.

Also, if USSR outnumbers your infantry 2-1 on the front lines, I think you are doing something wrong. They should not have such an advantage unless their dice were so great and yours so bad. What are you buying???

Squirecam