OK first off i now understand this game begins in Dec 41 when previously i thought it began in June 41 ( which would have served your position better)
If we were going to put Vichy in, then Syria needs to be Vichy
The Levant States remained part of Vichy until about early June of 41 when they were occupied by British forces
Conclusion: this is 1/2 year before your game starts
In Aug 1940 the Italians tried to attack the British in the Somaliland and did nothing … latter In march/April of 1941 the Brits pushed them back and captured Abyssinia and Italian Somaliland.
Conclusion: this is eight months before your game starts
Madagascar was also a Vichy territory until may-september 1942 the french fought and were defeated. In November the last stand had surrendered as well. 99% of the nation was in allied hands by the end of september 42.
Conclusion: this is after your game begins but Vichy territory was neutral, only an indemnity was paid the the Reich and no actual shipments of resources ever made transfer to any German ports ( axis should not be getting this money)
AS i stated Vichy was a neutral nation under some major economic demands because Germany blamed the France for starting the war and wanted them to pay reperations.
Vichy territory should be white neutral territories
Finland was clearly under german influence by early 1941
You have huge tracts of French territory in africa as if its under german control…This is totally bogus. All those territories with the exception of Morroco, Tunisia, and Algeria were free french control administration under Degualle and his British partners recaptured all of this by Nov 1940. Before that it was Vichy.
One of the major reasons why in Nov 1942 Hitler launched his attack against Vichy, was because the vichy forces had no desire to really defend against the allies… most of these allied ‘conquests’ were rather bloodless. That shows the fact that Vichy was not really interested in doing what Hitler wanted.
Thailand was attacked in Dec 41
Only French indo china was part of Japan before the games start.
If your making a game about History at least get the History part of it correct. Their are other ways to balance who has what.
If Vichy is to be neutral, then I can live with that. In this way, it is treated as any other neutral nation (for game play), so the territories will be grouped in with the others rather than being a separate player nation. This only involves changing the colour and moving the entries on the German set up card to the Neutral Card.
deepblue, would you mind posting a jpg of your map in progress for comment…this way we can all participate in ironing out issues like this. If not the map, then perhaps a listing of who holds what at your start date?
After a bit more thought……
If we are to turn all Vichy territory neutral, and have them subject to the neutral rules for the game, then Morocco, Northern Algeria, and Tunisia must become objectives for the Germans or Italians, otherwise they will be defeated with relative ease in the event of an amphibious landing. If they are axis objectives, then in my opinion (and everyone else may see this differently), this may prove to very detrimental to the axis. One of the nice things about the board as it is, is that it is more balanced between axis and allies, giving each a realistic chance to win. If Germany/Italy need to attack those Vichy nations, they may lose some infantry and get spread to thin…result is advantage allies. What if Morocco, Northern Algeria and Tunisia were left in German hands at the start of the game, an impassable barrier for the Sahara (as Craig Yope suggested) and the remaining colonies in Africa that were German were turned neutral to represent Vichy.
I am very interested to get Craig’s opinion on all that has transpired here in the last day or so.
When do you think all this information will be compiled and a prototype map made?
If we are to turn all Vichy territory neutral, and have them subject to the neutral rules for the game, then Morocco, Northern Algeria, and Tunisia must become objectives for the Germans or Italians, otherwise they will be defeated with relative ease in the event of an amphibious landing. If they are axis objectives, then in my opinion (and everyone else may see this differently), this may prove to very detrimental to the axis. One of the nice things about the board as it is, is that it is more balanced between axis and allies, giving each a realistic chance to win. If Germany/Italy need to attack those Vichy nations, they may lose some infantry and get spread to thin……result is advantage allies. What if Morocco, Northern Algeria and Tunisia were left in German hands at the start of the game, an impassable barrier for the Sahara (as Craig Yope suggested) and the remaining colonies in Africa that were German were turned neutral to represent Vichy.
The Idea is Revised that does not allow units to pass south of the Sahara is a good way to deal with the issue.
As far as axis objectives… only Tunis ( in Tuinisia) would serve as the only VC candidate due to its importance to the Axis for supply. The Vichy forces would be defending against allied attacks and present a buffer of sorts for the axis. This can only benifit them. Of course if they decide to attack Vichy then they are in fact in a worse position because of the allocation of infantry lost over marginal value territories.
The last idea would be realistic… German forces were allowed to roam around Morocco, Northern Algeria, and Tunisia for the purpose of supply to the forward positions. That would be historically correct.
What must not happen under any ideas is the idea that germany somehow has free reign in all of those other territories south of the sahara that were formerly french colonies.
Also, the italian territories in east africa should not be italian. The italians should be compensated by other means… but turning albania into 2 IPC dont look right.
Make sicily and/or sardinia worth something instead
Imperious,
I agree with you on one point, and this about not allowing Germany free reign south of the Sahara, which is why Craig suggested the desert acting as a unpassable barrier.
The Germans never were in those places south of the Sahara historicall.
pdel21,
They may have never been south of those places historically; however, are you going to let players play the game or are you going to have a reenactment pageant?
Historically Japan never stormed Moscow but in the game I have seen it happen.
Hey guy easy there. If you look back a couple of posts, I was prepped to let the board stay as it is…as I am now, the person who brought all of this up was Imperious Leader, I am simply agreeing with the fact that the board is not historically correct. I am more than satisifed with the board on page 1 of this long post with the spelling mistakes corrected. That in itself is enough for me.
further, there is nothing saying that Germany CANNOT be there if they want to go there. This is just board set up, if Germany wants those territories he can go after it. again I would be happy with the original board posted on page one with the spelling fixes.
(not picking a fight here)
reading technical data isn’t a strong suit of mine sorry. On a diffrent note how much time do you think you have in creating this baby of yours?
Africa
All of Libya is now under Italian control. Historically Italy lost Libya by now but the Germans had taken it back, minus Tobruk. To support Italy as a viable player nation I left in the hands of the Italians.
Under German Command it was taken back… Still over 75% of the force used were Italian.
Gentlemen,
I think before we go any further with this project I should express what I am looking to get from this project, and my point of view.
Lets start with what A&A is and isn’t. A&A is a WWII game that is on a global scale but does not have much depth. It is referred to as a “beer and peanuts†kind of game. It’s for a group of people who get together and want to play a game for 4 to 6 hours have some beer, some laughs and a good time. It is a very broad and general board game.
A&A is not a game for hardcore gamers/historians that want to replay the historical battles of the war down to minute details. Or people who want to make sure everything is absolutely correct and historically accurate. There are other games out there (Europe Engulfed, Third Reich) for that sort of thing and I enjoy playing them as well.
But this is A&A.
I posted to this forum because I believe this is a worth while project and the group of people seemed passionate about it. So I posted, offering some of my free time, to see this thing through and done right while meeting some people who are as fanatical about this game as I, to the point to pay 100+ dollars for a map.
I did not post to be badgered, insulted or to listen to rude remarks. I expect everyone to be cordial and polite, express their opinions and give suggestions that will contribute to the project not hinder it.
For the most part I have found what I was expecting, a group of people who want to make a great map, but in some cases we have lost track of why we are here, and have forgotten that everyone involved is volunteering their time.
So…
If you agree, and want to continue this project let me know. I am hoping we can work together to make an outstanding addition to the A&A legacy.
deepblue
Under German Command it was taken back… Still over 75% of the force used were Italian.
Thanks for the supporting info. Looks like we can leave Libya in the hands of the Italians.
Yes it was i who began the point about how the map was not historically correct. I am not advocating that the game plays out like the real war but it should be based on it in an accurate manner. People who actually read a history book will laugh at what constitutes German/Vichy and italian control for the period of dec 1941.
Its fine to make something that will be enjoyed by others. I am just pointing out that its inaccurate and nothing can detract from that unless a number of small changes are made. However, if portraying a period of history is not part of the idea of the game then by all means that is fine as well. I was just presenting the facts in case you want to take the time to make it historically correct.
Thats why some of us are posting… to help you out.
But statement: “Or people who want to make sure everything is absolutely correct and historically accurate” is a bit in the other direction… nobody wants everything down to the finest detail… but they dont want the Germans controling madagaskar either :roll:… their has to be something thats even marginally realistic or the map might as well be Titan. ( joke)
Ok, hopefully this will be my final post on the subject of Vichy, Madagascar.
We are rolling up Vichy into Germany for simplicity sake.
Vichy controlled Madagascar until November of 1942.
So Madagascar is grey (German Controlled) on our 1941 map?
Imp, if you have a specific solution please share, or anyone else for that matter.
My source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Madagascar
Last current changes post.
Russia
Vorkuta is now Komi-Zyryan SSR*
Norilsk is now Krasnoyarsk*
Kansk is now Southern Siberia*
Kevenki SSR is now Yevenki
Yakut is now Yakut SSR
Vladivostok is now Primorsky*
The border between Far Eastern Republic and Primorsky has been modified to reflect a more accurate presentation. (I hope)
Asia
Peking is now Peiping.
Chungking – Hupeh is now Hupeh*
French Indochina border has been corrected. (Saigon was removed)
New Delhi is now Delhi*
The border between Korea and Primorsky has been corrected. Manchuria is now land locked.
Middle East
Arabia is now Saudi Arabia
Americas
Colombia is now spelled correctly
Deep South is now Southern United States
Finished Ontario’s boarder
Northwest Territories is now labeled above Ontario
Northwest Territories is now Western Canada
Pacific
Midway is now Midway Island
Ocean
Sea square 103 has been divided
Sea square 26 as been reworked to make it more apparent that it connects with square 21
Sea square 27 has been divided
Black Sea square 43 has been divided
Update
Italian Roundel updated.
I believe that is all the updates posted on this thread to this point.
I hope to have a draft posted tomorrow.
deepblue
Wikpedia is not a decent resource. Im looking at history books referenced from knowledge.
This is from another source:
The Allies eventually captured the capital, Tananarive without much opposition and the town of Ambalavao. The last major action was at Andriamanalina on October 18. Annet surrendered near Ilhosy, in the south of the island on November 5.
On a map these areas of battles deciding the issue had allready captured most of it (about 90%) by oct. Most of the fighiting was over by this period the last city to be taken was on the extreme southern point and this was decided on Nov 5th.
Bottom line: It was never an issue of German control ever. I dont know why you need it to be “german” its Vichy
http://stonebooks.com/history/madagascar.shtml
lastly,
The Allies suffered about 500 casualties in the landing at Diego Suarez, and 30 killed and 90 wounded in the operations which followed September 10.
Imp,
Let my try this again, I must not be making myself clear. I think we are talking apples and oranges.
Vichy was in control of Madagascar, and Germany never had control. This is a true statement that I have never disagreed with.
I am not saying Germany had control.
With that said lets go to our game map. On our map we do not differentiate between Germany and Vichy they are both Axis and both fall under the umbrella of Germany for our game, just like in the current AA game. So all the assets of Vichy will be colored gray and be controlled by the German player, including North Africa and Madagascar.
On our map we do not differentiate between Germany and Vichy they are both Axis and both fall under the umbrella of Germany for our game, just like in the current AA game.
Yes and the only thing im saying is Vichy and germany need to be seperate and not german controlled ( hence no money to germany). IN revised only southern france is german controlled along with the 2 upper african territories and NOT the entire african sub continent… IN revised Madagaskar is British as well and NOT Vichy.
I dont know how you can say its just like The “current AA game” bacause its not.
But its fine if its not accurate because its not a concern or at least thats what i gather from this.
Gentlemen,
It’s finally here, my first draft!
I believe to be as productive as possible we should focus our discussions. The draft posted below is to help us decide on land territory attributes, such as correct name, color, allegiance, borders, etc. Once we have agreed on this topic we can move to a different topic such as ocean squares, etc.
So try to control your ADD. :-D
When reviewing the map please consider both historical accuracy and game play.
The image has been reduced by 50% to allow for faster download times. Also, elements have been removed to help us focus on the task at hand.
