Why should I build in the Baltic?

[DarthMaximus]

My concerns for the G1 AC buy revolve around what Russia can do and the lack of 16 IPC worth of ground units on round 1 means.

I’m not at all concerned about UK, b/c

1a)  The UK should not be worried about Ger or EE on rds 1-3
1b)  I think the focus of the UK on rds 1-3 should be Africa, not Europe, so therefore the purchase of the AC is overkill.
2)  Good purchases buy the UK make a threat on London impossible

As Germany if I can trade my initial fleet for 2 ftrs and possibly 1 bom, I’ll gladly take that.
And if they wait till rd 2, you got a free use of your tran with no added purchase.

My thinking all comes down to what I think is best for the UK, since I don’t feel UK should even be focusing on Germany/EE the first 2-3 rds, I see no need to try and defend the territories with naval units that can’t serve you on your impending land battles.  I think I’d lean towards buying 2 ftrs and simply threaten the Allied ships that way.  At least then you can use the ftrs against Russia.  1 ftr costs you 6 less and two only cost you 4 more.  Even a bom purchase may prove valuable.

Say you buy 10 inf, 1 ftr (or 2 arm) with Germanay and stack EE on G1 with 7-8 inf, 5 arm.

Then on G2 you can not only beef up WE with an inf or 2 (or arm) as needed but move 8 inf to EE from Ger.  Then place another 10 inf on Ger.

How is EE or Ger in trouble on UK2 or 3 when on UK 1 they must buy either a capital ship or air? and on UK 2 they can buy trns, which means you don’t need to worry about EE/Ger till UK 3, but you can have 10 new inf placed on Ger and 15-18 inf on EE.  Even then that means they must have landed in Afr and Nor at some pt in rd 1 or 2, which I think could be questionable.

Even on UK 4 they are looking at stacks of 15 (give or take) on Ger and 20+ on EE.  But now you can make WE an enticing target as you shift everything towards Ukr/Cauc.

I think it is harder to create these stacks if Russia is pushing back hard in UKr with the threat to hold due to some tank buys and the proximity of Wrus/Cauc to Ukr vs. Berlin/SE to Ukr.

IMO, the G1 AC prevents a landing that shouldn’t be considered in the first place.

[Guest]

Without a Baltic buy…

The Baltic fleet is DEAD on UK1, and UK loses 1 FIG.
UK builds an AC, TRN and 2 INF, conslidates fleet and build in SZ3.

On SZ2, UK can hit Eastern with 1 ARM, 1 ART, 4 INF, 1 FIG, 1 BOM, and BB shot.  Puts a bit of a kink in Germany’s attack on Russia.  21 attack points, 3-4 German units dead in the immediate onslaught; half of your “extra” units from the G1 buy.

Or they hit Western with the same force.  and they have to fear Germany’s counter far less, because Germany has to lose AF to attack that fleet, and has no sneak shots, no naval fodder.  With that fleet (3 TRN, 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 FIG), even a TOTAL strike by the Luftwaffe only has a 43% chance of success.  And even if they win… there are NO GERMAN PLANES for Russia to deal with.

Or you ignore the fleet, and UK hits germany with the 6 divisions plus AF and BB shot in UK2, then 8 divisions plus AF and support shot in UK3… right as teh Americans arive to reinforce or follow up.

You have a choice as Germany…
Spend 16 IPC to make your Baltic Fleet actually WORTH something, or surrender those $36 of units for basically no gain.

[Jennifer]

Dont forget to take into account time lost by the Allies in rebuilding those transports and moving them into position after they use them as fodder on your fleet.

Also, you’re trading 8 dollar submarines for 10 dollar fighters if they choose to go AIR FORCE only against your fleet.

[DarthMaximus]

I completely disagree.  If UK wants to do a suicide run on EE on UK 2 go ahead.

First, they’ll lose 2 ftrs on the Baltic fleet attack on UK 1.

Second, if they want to hit 12+ inf, 5+ arm, aa on UK 2, Go ahead!  Lol!
Germany may lose half their “extra” units but the UK just threw away their entire airforce and several more units that don’t go to Afr or Nor.

I’ll take 3 inf for 4 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm, 1 ftr and 1 bom all day long,

WE can still have ~6 inf, rt, 2 arm, 5 ftrs, aa, go ahead an hit that as well.  Double Lol!

Thanks for giving me Africa.  (Oh yeah, assuming bid to Lib)

Why would Germany attack the UK fleet?  That is just foolish.  You have 5 ftrs defending at 4 why use them as 3’s.  Let UK try it’s “fools gold” stike.

The 1-2-3 punch from UK-UK-US would never work.

Germany is placing 10 inf, 2 arm in rd 1, 10 inf, 2 arm in rd 2, and 10 inf, 2 arm in rd 3.
You place the Inf in Ger and arm on SE.

UK and US CAN’T come close to competeing with those numbers, not in rds 1-3, and not conceding Afr.  You have to sink the Med fleet at some pt???

You lost 1-2 ftrs taking out the initial Baltic Fleet.
That means at best, 3 inf, 3 arm, 1 ftr, 1 bom, 1 bb vs. ~12 inf, ~2-4 arm, aa (due to non coms from G2).

As soon as you make this attack, you telegraph your Round 3 moves and Germany can easily prepare for it on G3.

If it works for you guys, great.  I know it is used by a lot of players, so I guess it must work sometimes.  I just know I can exploit it as Russia.

And it doesn’t really fit my style of play as Germany.
I’ve tried it, and I think it handicaps me.  But again that is just personal preference.

[Guest]

Darth,

The UK attack on Baltic Fleet is nearly even odds of 1 or 2 dead FIGs.

UK can also land in Karelia and/or Norway, while still maintianing a threat on Western, Germany and Eastern.  That is 5 territories for Germany to defend.  if you mass that heavy in Eastern, you WILL be weak in one (or more) of those 5, and UK can hit it, unrestricted.  That is the point of the Baltic AC, to reduce Germany;s front line to a smaller area.

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

Darth,

The UK attack on Baltic Fleet is nearly even odds of 1 or 2 dead FIGs.

UK can also land in Karelia and/or Norway, while still maintianing a threat on Western, Germany and Eastern.  That is 5 territories for Germany to defend.  if you mass that heavy in Eastern, you WILL be weak in one (or more) of those 5, and UK can hit it, unrestricted.  That is the point of the Baltic AC, to reduce Germany;s front line to a smaller area.

Very true, but now you have 5 more infantry to defend.

[Guest]

And 4 fewer ships to even SUGGEST a threat to the Allied TRN fleets.

[Guest]

And Darth, let us not forget that I did win the game I played against you where I was the Axis, and I bought the Baltic AC on G1 :-D  :evil:  :mrgreen:

[NoMercy]

and I beat him when he did by the AC as the axis.

in my game vs him  the AC was totally worthless. I hit Africa hard first then the Baltic navy. it was round 3 or 4 and I lost barely anything.

I bought it vs him as well and didn’t like it and also lost as the axis in this case.

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

And 4 fewer ships to even SUGGEST a threat to the Allied TRN fleets.

When UK responds to a G1 carrier purchase with 3 fighters, you know that Baltic fleet is going to die.  Or will you buy another carrier?  Then the US can buy 4 fighters on ITS turn.  Sure, if the UK and US just buy fighters, that slows down the Allied attack on Africa.  But after those fighters kill the German fleet, they will end up at Moscow, or end up messing around in India.

You DO have an initial 36 IPC of ships in the Baltic, and those ships can be VERY useful in killing any Allied fleet in range.  But I think that the Allies can just work around the Baltic fleet - if the Baltic fleet ventures out, they’ll be in range of Allied navy and air; if they stay where they are, one fleet can reinforce USSR at Archange / threaten Western Europe, while the other fleet goes south to reinforce Africa / threaten Western and Southern Europe.

[DarthMaximus]

@ncscswitch:

And Darth, let us not forget that I did win the game I played against you where I was the Axis, and I bought the Baltic AC on G1 :-D  :evil:  :mrgreen:

Yeah, and I also lost 3 inf and 1 ftr at Belo on R1 without even taking it.  But I’m sure that had nothing to do with it.  :roll:

:-D

If you bought Inf and Arm you would have gotten to Moscow a lot quicker.  :wink:

[DarthMaximus]

On a side note, I just took out Jens Fleet on UK 3, I attacked with 4 trns, 1 bb, 5 ftrs, 1 bom and cleared with 1 trn, 1 bb, 4 ftrs, 1 bom.  I bought 2 trns and another bom on UK 3 as well.

Not sure how Jen losing an AC and 2 ftrs on UK 3 helps the Axis cause.

Losses:
Allies:  34 (3 trn, 1 ftr)
Axis:  72 (2 subs, 1 trn, 1 dd, 1 ac, 2 ftrs)

[newpaintbrush]

she should probably have tried to hit your Allied fleet first with all Baltic navy plus fighters and bomber, unless you had a couple of US carriers there.

I don’t know if she camps fighters in range though.

[Guest]

Dollar for daollar, about the same break down as losing the fleet on UK1 in tersm of total value of units lost.

But you did that on UK3 correct?  So now it will be UK4 when you start landings.

No matter how I break that down, it still sounds better than having the UK starting landings on UK2, and having that support shot tearing up an INF a turn for free, and having to keep more troops away from the Russian front for 2 turns, etc.

[NoMercy]

I would rather lose a few inf in the first rounds cause of UK landings and BB-shot then 2 fgts and a purchased AC (not to mention potential other fgts loss in Ukraine or the med)

[DarthMaximus]

I’m with NoMercy on this one.  I’d rather have the 16 IPC and 5 ftrs.

Coincidently, the game I just started with NoMercy could prove be a good test.  I’m obviously not sure what NM will do, but at the end of G1 (I purchased 10 inf, 2 arm)  I have:

WE:  3 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm, 4 ftrs, aa
Ger:  8 inf, 1 arm
SE: 2 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr
EE: 11 inf, 1 rt, 5 arm

With minimal forces scattered around, like belo, kar, ukr, lib, and egy.

I really don’t see how UK can make any sort of landing on UK 2, if he decides to risk his air for my ships.

Assuming I need a few inf from EE on G2 trade Ukr/Kar that’ll leave me with ~6 then I move ~7 more to EE from Ger, with the rest of troops to WE (minus possible inf to Egy).

That leaves:

WE:  5 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm, 4-5 ftrs, aa
SE:  new placement
Ger:  1-2 ftrs, 1 bom + new placement
EE:  ~13 inf, 1 rt, 5 arm
(give or take an inf, arm, ftr here or there)

I would be glad to see UK suicide their existing units and rd 1 buys on any one of these territories.

It concedes Afr for what could be far too long and It is easy for Germany to replace Inf while UK will already be in the high 20’s meaning they are going to just barely be able to fill their 4 trannies for the next few turns.

I think of it in terms of Classic.
As the Allies I don’t usually consider going to WE, GER, or EE on rds 1-3 and in that case Germany has no ships after R1.  I’d still go to Afr (usually rd 2) with UK then US, then reinforce Fin (which Russia takes on R2) on Rd 3 and work through Kar.

I don’t see why that wouldn’t work in Revised.

Certainly with a few extra German ships to start in revised you have a few more options, but I don’t buy that an AC must be bought.

I do like the idea if you are going to commit to possibly crippling UK, or you want to take a shot at an Atlantic unification.  Strong Afr bid, rd 1 drop the AC.  Rd 2 add a trn, Rd 3 add a trn, etc.  Make it devasting for the UK to even consider a strike.  I think you could play defensively against Russia and still have sufficient income from Afr/Nor and Kar to make this a possibility.  But I’m just not a fan of buy the AC and then ignore, seems like a waste.

[DarthMaximus]

@newpaintbrush:

she should probably have tried to hit your Allied fleet first with all Baltic navy plus fighters and bomber, unless you had a couple of US carriers there.

I don’t know if she camps fighters in range though.

She could have done that and basically traded fleet for fleet.  All allies combined I had 6 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 1 bb, but that would have ment conceding some of the following to UK/Russia (WE/Kar/Belo/Ukr) since I believe I held all four, or risk German armor to take them back.

Ultimaely I think the G attack would have ment conceding Ukr to the Allies permanently, which is why I put the fleet in range to be attacked.  :-)
She didn’t bite, and we ended up with the UK attack on G fleet.

[Jennifer]

@newpaintbrush:

she should probably have tried to hit your Allied fleet first with all Baltic navy plus fighters and bomber, unless you had a couple of US carriers there.

I don’t know if she camps fighters in range though.

If I’m remembering right, DM had quite a rather large fleet with America and England and my choices were loose my entire fleet and my entire airforce to kill his transports, or hope for decent dice and make him loose transports and maybe warships/planes attacking my fleet 1 on 1.

Needless to say, you can tell I did not get decent dice!

[newpaintbrush]

@DarthMaximus:

@newpaintbrush:

she should probably have tried to hit your Allied fleet first with all Baltic navy plus fighters and bomber, unless you had a couple of US carriers there.

I don’t know if she camps fighters in range though.

She could have done that and basically traded fleet for fleet.  All allies combined I had 6 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 1 bb, but that would have ment conceding some of the following to UK/Russia (WE/Kar/Belo/Ukr) since I believe I held all four, or risk German armor to take them back.

Ultimaely I think the G attack would have ment conceding Ukr to the Allies permanently, which is why I put the fleet in range to be attacked.  :-)
She didn’t bite, and we ended up with the UK attack on G fleet.

6 trns, 1 sub, 1 dd, 1 bb; 15 hit, 10 count
1 trns, 1 ac, 2 sub, 1 dd, 5 fighters, 1 bomber; 27 hit, 11 count.

It’s not as simple as trading fleets.  What she did was let you hit her navy with fodder navy and air, which left your transports free to move cost-effective ground units in that same turn.  If she had instead hit your navy, she would have lost her whole navy, but all your transports would certainly die, which would mean a two turn delay; nothing transported that turn, have to buy transports on second turn, and able to move units in on the third turn.  Plus she would have kept much of her airforce to deal with any new Allied units, so you’d have to rebuild escorts for your transports as well.

You can hit and run, leaving your air force intact, but still killing those transports.

[DarthMaximus]

I agree, that was an option, but she would have conceded some of the following to the Allies:  WE, Nor, Kar, Belo, and Ukr as the UK or Rus held all of those prior to Germany’s turn.

Meaning if she commited all her planes and fleet to take out my trns she would have had to expose her tanks to retake Belo, Kar, and Ukr or of course concede them all to Russia for another turn.

Either way Germany was going to lose something.

And UK only loses 1 turn (the purchase of new trns) for drop off, since the UK’s next turn I used the trns as fodder anyway to take out the Germans.  Meaning I didn’t unload new units that turn anyway.

So either way UK only loses one drop off.

Ultimately, I think she did the right thing by using her ftrs elsewhere on the mainland, the real problem was leaving the 2 ftrs on the AC, but again, if you are going to pull those ftrs, I really don’t see the worth in buying the AC to begin with.