@krieghund yes, that is what I meant
America
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Who says America will counter? Why would you? Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.
Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic. Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl? better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.
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If you do not Counter, then Pearl is a freebie… kill a US FIG, AC and SUB to prevent them from going to the Atlantic, and still have your forces for homeland defense in J2. Good trade for the Axis.
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If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.
If Allies goes IC in India and Sinkiang that is really bad for Japan.
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@Nix:
If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.
If Allies goes IC in India and Sinkiang that is really bad for Japan.
Vs 1 BB, 1 AC, 2 Fig, 4 TRN that isn’t a very good idea with America. IMHO. You loose 35 IPCs in airpower you could use in Europe to get 16 IPCs worth of transports and damage a battleship that repairs automatically.
And if you hit Pearl, most American players I’ve seen and played usually ignore you in Pearl and move to the Atlantic thus not wasting 1 round and valuable airpower trying to sink you. After all, when Germany falls, Japan’s done for regardless of their having 2 battleships or not.
Thus the only difference I’d see is that America starts with an AC it normally wouldnt have and an extra fighter. A total savings of 10 IPCs (since there’s no point in America buying a carrier for the Atlantic when they have a battleship to add to England’s fleet) and in the total scope of 10 rounds, 10 IPCs is barely a dent in the 380-400 IPCs America’s going to be earning anyway.
However, the ignored fleet can free up your units to strike S. Africa early in the game, or speed up the conquest of Asia.
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@Nix:
If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.
Only if the fleet is in SZ60. If it is in SZ61, then as soon as those US ships get that far from home, Japan takes them out with minimal losses.
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Pearl would have to roll pretty well for Japan to lose anything. Take 2 hits on the Battleships and you lose nothing. I don’t see an American counter attack taking place, so it is free ships to destroy.
I think you are looking at it wrong Jen. The question should be what does Japan gain from not attacking pearl. On the first turn Japan does not have enough ground forces to adequately attack everything it wants to reguardless of how many planes it is using. Most of the firepower taking out Pearl comes from japan’s fleet which would be doing nothing if not attacking pearl.
I don’t see the minor logistical help worth the huge military cost of not killing those pieces when they are vulnerable.
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I would counter Pearl if I get 3 hits as America leaving Japan with a BB,AC,2 Figs against a BB, Trn as fodder, 2 Figs, and a Bomber.
73% of the time Japan will have nothing left. -
I make that trade happily, because the US usually has nothing (or only 1) ship left also.
And with the US out of the Pacific, those TRNs I built in J1 rule the Pacific… especially with my remaining Capital Ships near Kwang.
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I’d actually take that trade as well because now America has to buy a capital ship and some fighters (probably) to use against my sister nation, Germany.
It’s far wiser, and thus why it’s much more prevalent, to just leave the Pacific if you are not going 90% into it with intent to kill.
But I’ve seen Pearl go bad. I’ve seen Japan loose the BB, DD, SS and get stuck with an AC or loose the AC, DD, SS and get stuck with just the BB. If that’s the case, I’m going to kill that BB. Best chance I’ll ever have and I don’t even need my BB to do it.
Build 2 AC, 1 Fig. Get some transports up on USA2. Start goin after Japan itself, forget the islands. Ostrasize IT, then clear off islands.
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American Pac Strat, absolute best ever!
Japan island conquered on US #3!!!
Builds:
(First note that Pearl was not done.)
1 BB, 1 AC.
3 Tran
Ground units with change.
Staged fleet on US 1 and US 2 in Alaska.
US 3 invaded Sea Zone 60, left empty so Japan could shuffle directly into Manchuria instead of Buryatia (Bury had 10 Infantry, 2 Fighters and a tank from Russia in it.)
End:
5 Infantry, 5 Armor (5 Transports), 2 Battleships, 4 Fighters vs 1 Fighter, 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery.
B….E…A…utiful!
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And what comatose player is handling Japan that they both ignored Pearl AND ignored the US fleet off Alaska?
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@ncscswitch:
And what comatose player is handling Japan that they both ignored Pearl AND ignored the US fleet off Alaska?
It was a tournament game at Northern Illinois University. He was so busy worrying about helping Germany and thought he could take Russia before America posed a threat. However, he - to his own admission - forgot that the Japan Sea Zone was split in two and thus felt safe in not overly stacking his capital.
He did reclaim it, since America was reduced to 1 tank, 3 fighters, but the Axis never recovered after that.
Though, I wouldn’t call him comatose. I think that’s a little harsh. We all make mistakes - especially when there’s no odds calculators around to determine optimal attacking conditions. (A fact that I think artifically raises the skill levels of some online players, myself included.)
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If you rely on sims, then yes.
But I’ll be honest, I am not reliant on sims, and I tend to use them only to confirm my own evaluations (or to generate an actual percentage for purposes of discussion).
The vast majority of my moves (at least in the games that are “move a day” paced) are worked out in my head while driving all over the eastern Carolinas.
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Who says America will counter? Why would you? Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.
Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic. Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl? better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.
If you don’t counter whos to say japan doesn’t adjust the strategy to go for the US while they are occupied reinforcing europe? it’ll atleast force them on a two front war which most people find is ridiculous.
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The general principle with Japan is “security and dominion”
They gain security by destroying the intial challenges to their Pacific dominance (wiping out all or most of teh UK and US fleets in J1)
They go for Dominion by conqueoring all of China, Siberia, India, and the Middle East.If the US goes into the Pacific, then Japan spends additional resources on security, but they never need to do so to the extent of surrendering dominion. They may be slowed, but except in rare and high risk Allies strats, Japan WILL achieve both in a typical game.
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Who says America will counter? Why would you? Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.
Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic. Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl? better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.
If you don’t counter whos to say japan doesn’t adjust the strategy to go for the US while they are occupied reinforcing europe? it’ll atleast force them on a two front war which most people find is ridiculous.
Japan cannot hope to win an American campaign. There’s no benefit to the American player or the allies as a whole in destroying whatever naval assets Japan has left in Hawaii. There is great risk in doing so. And, on top of all that, you are now 2 turns out from moving your battleship to the Atlantic instead of 1 turn out. (SZ 55 to SZ 20 to SZ 10 vs SZ 55 to SZ 52 to SZ 19 to SZ 10) Assuming it lives.
What do you gain? Not much. Personally, I never use a Battleship in teh attack at pearl anyway. 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Destroyer and 1 Submarine are more then capable (98% chance to win) agianst the Americans. meanwhile, my battleships can be moved into position to either hit the English fleet or support my landings where needed.
So you counter Hawaii…you sink maybe the destroyer that’s left, assuming Hawaii only got one hit, not 2 or 3. Now I have a chance to greatly aid my German partner by sinking America’s only capital ship reducing the Allies to one. (Or even zero, if Russia didn’t move their sub to SZ2 and Germany hit the BB there with a fighter, bomber and submarine)
Dunno, the American counter at pearl is a huge risk for almost no gain. Even trading BB for BB isn’t a wise move on America’s part. UNLESS (and here’s the butt, guys) UNLESS America and England have decided to go on a KJF strategy. In which case you’ll need 10 infantry from Russia, an IC in India, the British fleet and you’ll need to produce 3 capitals for America (2 if Pearl isn’t sunk.)
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Leaving Pearl Harbor alone is a pretty bad idea. I WOULD do it, though, if I had an even better target; those usually involve either an isolated stack of USSR infantry in Burytia (kill them at the loss of only two-three Jap infantry, and the Soviet Far East is wide open), or if India had an IC and just required a few extra fighters to take. In both cases, the Japanese transports must be protected at any cost, of course, and assume a good German position.
Basically, the US can mount a powerful attack in the Pacific very quickly, but it doesn’t matter because Moscow is going to fall to massed Japanese units pushing from the east and Germans pushing from the west. It is horribly difficult to overcome the loss of an India with an industrial complex built by UK during its turn, or the loss of six USSR infantry that have no support.
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I’ve had both experiences with the U.S.
i’ve gotten my Pearl fleet killed, most of the times, on J1, and have concentrated mainly on Germany.
But on one game, not a long time ago, I was playing KGF, and my Pearl fleet was not attacked on J1. Japan was concentrating on mainland, and was almost reaching Moscow, to kill Russia and help Germany. In one or two turns I used my still alive Pearl fleet, and built a few trannies/battleship/destroyer, etc. and went up through Alaska. This got Japan of guard, and the Japan player had to stall it’s attack on Russia for a few turns, and reinforce Manchuria/Japan, which were the main points that I could attack. Eventually, with no help, Germany got smashed, and Russia survived, and after that, it was only downfall for the Axis.
My Pearl fleet cost Japan the game. -
Often the threat of action is more effective than the action itself. :-D
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The only real viable arguement I can see for not killing Pearl is that with it, America can have 3 Aircraft Carriers, 5 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Destroyer and 1 Transport in SZ 55 at the end of USA 1 and can buy 5 more transports on USA 2 to add to the destroyer/2 transports comming from E. USA (SZ 10.)
That’s a huge threat to Japan. But it effectively removes 50% of the attack troops off the German front. (Assuming England looses a lot of ground as does Russia while America looses only 4 of it’s 42 starting, usually.)
Meanwhile, a small investment of 16 IPCs for 2 subs a round (maybe even getting SSX if tech is in play) and Japan nuetrallizes that fleet quickly. (Fighters without carriers are no threat to Japan.)
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