@krieghund yes, that is what I meant
America
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A lot of discussion has happened over what happens with the British fleet in the Pacific…do they split up and hope to kill a transport and a submarine before being sunk themselves, should they take out New Guinee with Australian infantry, should they try to run away, etc.
The question I want to discuss now, however, is just how bad is it for Japan NOT to sink the American fleet in Pearl?
You might sucker them into a Pacific campaign (which many of you feel is a loosing strategy). You’ll also have that many more forces on the Russian front sooner. (At least 2 more fighters, probably 2 fighters, a battleship and a bomber.)
Whatcha think? Remember, it’s going to be 4 turns before that Carrier can get to England. That’s the equivalent in time to walk from Manchuria to Buryatia, to Yakut to Evenki to attack Moscow directly with starting forces in Manchuria.
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You still kill Pearl.
Japan loses very little power in terms of their Asia push in killing Pearl. And they force the US to counter using their remainign naval assets, and nearly all of their air assets. that means those units are not bound for Europe if US counters.
If the US does not counter, you killed half the Pac Fleet, and 2 of 5 US Figs on J1 (one at Pearl, one in China) and you then sail back to Japan to protect your TRNs and make sure that the UK fleet does not pose any real threat to Japan. You kill those annoyance forces, and then start claiming UK income form wherever they took INF out of, and make Japan that much stronger against Russia, and UK that much weaker against Germany.
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@ncscswitch:
You still kill Pearl.
Japan loses very little power in terms of their Asia push in killing Pearl. And they force the US to counter using their remainign naval assets, and nearly all of their air assets. that means those units are not bound for Europe if US counters.
If the US does not counter, you killed half the Pac Fleet, and 2 of 5 US Figs on J1 (one at Pearl, one in China) and you then sail back to Japan to protect your TRNs and make sure that the UK fleet does not pose any real threat to Japan. You kill those annoyance forces, and then start claiming UK income form wherever they took INF out of, and make Japan that much stronger against Russia, and UK that much weaker against Germany.
That’s great and all, but doesn’t address the question. How bad would it be to ignore Pearl and let America keep the carrier?
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Japan risks loss of their TRN fleet if they do not kill Pearl on J1.
THAT is a very negative impact, and one I am not ready to accept under current standards of play.
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But how risky is it? You have 2 Battleships, 2 Carriers and 4 fighters to defend your transports. Were you not just espousing the supremecy of Japan’s navy in its ability to crush anything the allies send at it? Then why waste time killing them when you can move your plans forward a whole turn and secure africa for japan before the Allies are even ready to think about landing in Europe?
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Because in killing Pearl, the US counters, and you get not only Pearl, but also 2 more FIGs, a BB, a TRN, and a BOM in the trade.
Japan loses ships that, once the coastal territories are secured, are out of a job. In exchange, there are fewer FIGs heading for Europe, fewer Capital Ships in the Atlantic for Germany to deal with, and ZERO threat from the Allies in the Pacific.
Security AND weakening the opposition agianst Germany.
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Who says America will counter? Why would you? Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.
Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic. Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl? better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.
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If you do not Counter, then Pearl is a freebie… kill a US FIG, AC and SUB to prevent them from going to the Atlantic, and still have your forces for homeland defense in J2. Good trade for the Axis.
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If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.
If Allies goes IC in India and Sinkiang that is really bad for Japan.
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@Nix:
If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.
If Allies goes IC in India and Sinkiang that is really bad for Japan.
Vs 1 BB, 1 AC, 2 Fig, 4 TRN that isn’t a very good idea with America. IMHO. You loose 35 IPCs in airpower you could use in Europe to get 16 IPCs worth of transports and damage a battleship that repairs automatically.
And if you hit Pearl, most American players I’ve seen and played usually ignore you in Pearl and move to the Atlantic thus not wasting 1 round and valuable airpower trying to sink you. After all, when Germany falls, Japan’s done for regardless of their having 2 battleships or not.
Thus the only difference I’d see is that America starts with an AC it normally wouldnt have and an extra fighter. A total savings of 10 IPCs (since there’s no point in America buying a carrier for the Atlantic when they have a battleship to add to England’s fleet) and in the total scope of 10 rounds, 10 IPCs is barely a dent in the 380-400 IPCs America’s going to be earning anyway.
However, the ignored fleet can free up your units to strike S. Africa early in the game, or speed up the conquest of Asia.
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@Nix:
If not doing pearl US will hit SZ60 with 1 Sub, 1 AC, 2 Fig and 1 Bmb that kills the Jap trn´s and delays Japan reinforcements in Asia.
Only if the fleet is in SZ60. If it is in SZ61, then as soon as those US ships get that far from home, Japan takes them out with minimal losses.
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Pearl would have to roll pretty well for Japan to lose anything. Take 2 hits on the Battleships and you lose nothing. I don’t see an American counter attack taking place, so it is free ships to destroy.
I think you are looking at it wrong Jen. The question should be what does Japan gain from not attacking pearl. On the first turn Japan does not have enough ground forces to adequately attack everything it wants to reguardless of how many planes it is using. Most of the firepower taking out Pearl comes from japan’s fleet which would be doing nothing if not attacking pearl.
I don’t see the minor logistical help worth the huge military cost of not killing those pieces when they are vulnerable.
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I would counter Pearl if I get 3 hits as America leaving Japan with a BB,AC,2 Figs against a BB, Trn as fodder, 2 Figs, and a Bomber.
73% of the time Japan will have nothing left. -
I make that trade happily, because the US usually has nothing (or only 1) ship left also.
And with the US out of the Pacific, those TRNs I built in J1 rule the Pacific… especially with my remaining Capital Ships near Kwang.
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I’d actually take that trade as well because now America has to buy a capital ship and some fighters (probably) to use against my sister nation, Germany.
It’s far wiser, and thus why it’s much more prevalent, to just leave the Pacific if you are not going 90% into it with intent to kill.
But I’ve seen Pearl go bad. I’ve seen Japan loose the BB, DD, SS and get stuck with an AC or loose the AC, DD, SS and get stuck with just the BB. If that’s the case, I’m going to kill that BB. Best chance I’ll ever have and I don’t even need my BB to do it.
Build 2 AC, 1 Fig. Get some transports up on USA2. Start goin after Japan itself, forget the islands. Ostrasize IT, then clear off islands.
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American Pac Strat, absolute best ever!
Japan island conquered on US #3!!!
Builds:
(First note that Pearl was not done.)
1 BB, 1 AC.
3 Tran
Ground units with change.
Staged fleet on US 1 and US 2 in Alaska.
US 3 invaded Sea Zone 60, left empty so Japan could shuffle directly into Manchuria instead of Buryatia (Bury had 10 Infantry, 2 Fighters and a tank from Russia in it.)
End:
5 Infantry, 5 Armor (5 Transports), 2 Battleships, 4 Fighters vs 1 Fighter, 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery.
B….E…A…utiful!
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And what comatose player is handling Japan that they both ignored Pearl AND ignored the US fleet off Alaska?
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@ncscswitch:
And what comatose player is handling Japan that they both ignored Pearl AND ignored the US fleet off Alaska?
It was a tournament game at Northern Illinois University. He was so busy worrying about helping Germany and thought he could take Russia before America posed a threat. However, he - to his own admission - forgot that the Japan Sea Zone was split in two and thus felt safe in not overly stacking his capital.
He did reclaim it, since America was reduced to 1 tank, 3 fighters, but the Axis never recovered after that.
Though, I wouldn’t call him comatose. I think that’s a little harsh. We all make mistakes - especially when there’s no odds calculators around to determine optimal attacking conditions. (A fact that I think artifically raises the skill levels of some online players, myself included.)
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If you rely on sims, then yes.
But I’ll be honest, I am not reliant on sims, and I tend to use them only to confirm my own evaluations (or to generate an actual percentage for purposes of discussion).
The vast majority of my moves (at least in the games that are “move a day” paced) are worked out in my head while driving all over the eastern Carolinas.
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Who says America will counter? Why would you? Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.
Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic. Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl? better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.
If you don’t counter whos to say japan doesn’t adjust the strategy to go for the US while they are occupied reinforcing europe? it’ll atleast force them on a two front war which most people find is ridiculous.
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