@krieghund Your answer and the FAQ are super helpful – thank you!
America
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The general principle with Japan is “security and dominion”
They gain security by destroying the intial challenges to their Pacific dominance (wiping out all or most of teh UK and US fleets in J1)
They go for Dominion by conqueoring all of China, Siberia, India, and the Middle East.If the US goes into the Pacific, then Japan spends additional resources on security, but they never need to do so to the extent of surrendering dominion. They may be slowed, but except in rare and high risk Allies strats, Japan WILL achieve both in a typical game.
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Who says America will counter? Why would you? Unless of course you had a good shot of sinking a battleship and carrier because you got stellar dice on the defense.
Nah, only a fool would counter pearl when you’re more then capable of just moving into the Atlantic. Even if you decide to go KJF, why go back to Pearl? better to build the fleet in LA and then move out.
If you don’t counter whos to say japan doesn’t adjust the strategy to go for the US while they are occupied reinforcing europe? it’ll atleast force them on a two front war which most people find is ridiculous.
Japan cannot hope to win an American campaign. There’s no benefit to the American player or the allies as a whole in destroying whatever naval assets Japan has left in Hawaii. There is great risk in doing so. And, on top of all that, you are now 2 turns out from moving your battleship to the Atlantic instead of 1 turn out. (SZ 55 to SZ 20 to SZ 10 vs SZ 55 to SZ 52 to SZ 19 to SZ 10) Assuming it lives.
What do you gain? Not much. Personally, I never use a Battleship in teh attack at pearl anyway. 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Destroyer and 1 Submarine are more then capable (98% chance to win) agianst the Americans. meanwhile, my battleships can be moved into position to either hit the English fleet or support my landings where needed.
So you counter Hawaii…you sink maybe the destroyer that’s left, assuming Hawaii only got one hit, not 2 or 3. Now I have a chance to greatly aid my German partner by sinking America’s only capital ship reducing the Allies to one. (Or even zero, if Russia didn’t move their sub to SZ2 and Germany hit the BB there with a fighter, bomber and submarine)
Dunno, the American counter at pearl is a huge risk for almost no gain. Even trading BB for BB isn’t a wise move on America’s part. UNLESS (and here’s the butt, guys) UNLESS America and England have decided to go on a KJF strategy. In which case you’ll need 10 infantry from Russia, an IC in India, the British fleet and you’ll need to produce 3 capitals for America (2 if Pearl isn’t sunk.)
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Leaving Pearl Harbor alone is a pretty bad idea. I WOULD do it, though, if I had an even better target; those usually involve either an isolated stack of USSR infantry in Burytia (kill them at the loss of only two-three Jap infantry, and the Soviet Far East is wide open), or if India had an IC and just required a few extra fighters to take. In both cases, the Japanese transports must be protected at any cost, of course, and assume a good German position.
Basically, the US can mount a powerful attack in the Pacific very quickly, but it doesn’t matter because Moscow is going to fall to massed Japanese units pushing from the east and Germans pushing from the west. It is horribly difficult to overcome the loss of an India with an industrial complex built by UK during its turn, or the loss of six USSR infantry that have no support.
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I’ve had both experiences with the U.S.
i’ve gotten my Pearl fleet killed, most of the times, on J1, and have concentrated mainly on Germany.
But on one game, not a long time ago, I was playing KGF, and my Pearl fleet was not attacked on J1. Japan was concentrating on mainland, and was almost reaching Moscow, to kill Russia and help Germany. In one or two turns I used my still alive Pearl fleet, and built a few trannies/battleship/destroyer, etc. and went up through Alaska. This got Japan of guard, and the Japan player had to stall it’s attack on Russia for a few turns, and reinforce Manchuria/Japan, which were the main points that I could attack. Eventually, with no help, Germany got smashed, and Russia survived, and after that, it was only downfall for the Axis.
My Pearl fleet cost Japan the game. -
Often the threat of action is more effective than the action itself. :-D
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The only real viable arguement I can see for not killing Pearl is that with it, America can have 3 Aircraft Carriers, 5 Fighters, 1 Battleship, 1 Destroyer and 1 Transport in SZ 55 at the end of USA 1 and can buy 5 more transports on USA 2 to add to the destroyer/2 transports comming from E. USA (SZ 10.)
That’s a huge threat to Japan. But it effectively removes 50% of the attack troops off the German front. (Assuming England looses a lot of ground as does Russia while America looses only 4 of it’s 42 starting, usually.)
Meanwhile, a small investment of 16 IPCs for 2 subs a round (maybe even getting SSX if tech is in play) and Japan nuetrallizes that fleet quickly. (Fighters without carriers are no threat to Japan.)
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I’ve had success not attacking Pearl but only because the US player was frustrated that I could match his naval builds and still put troops into asia. It slowed the march on moscow greatly but also kept the US from attacking Germany. Anyway it was a solid Axis victory. Leavig Pearl alone makes some players think Pacific campaign any money not going towards Germany is good to me.
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i can’t believe it happend, i agree with jen. i do attack pearl 90% of my games, but i have on ocasion not attacked and still won. since allies win majority of games anyway, it really doesn’t hurt.
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I just did a Pearl variant that worked out ratehr nicely…
Pearl with air only, plus my DST (lost my SUB in UK1).
I took out the Pearl fleet, lost the DST, and landed my FIGs from the attack on an AC I have moved to Wake.
That left my AC out of range of much of the air power normally available for a Pearl counter (Western FIG and Eastern BOM were out of range). That would ahve left the US attacking a loaded AC with 1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 FIG. (almost 50% US would be wiped out in that attack).
And it kept a BB off Japan to cover my TRNs, and I still have an AC and BB off Kwang.
In short, I got Pearl and almost the entire British navy (they have 1 TRN in the Indian Ocean, and 1 SUB in the Pacific) for a cost of only 1 SUB and 1 DST.
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i agree switch i usally use just air power+ 1 sub or dd, but this game i went a little thin, i also attacked the uk fleet in sz 34, so pearl cost me 1 sub+ 2 fig. not to bad. but my point is withoput a kill japan first plan not attacking pearl isin’t that bad. it’s hard for me not to go after japan if i’m left with the pearl fleet. the question is, is it better for the axis to draw USA in the pacific, and japan battle them thier ? can germany hold off UK & russ? i believe germany can hold on, but cannot take moscow, and to win you have to take a capitol.
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You need the DST at Pearl to prevent the SUB from submerging. If you let the SUB live, the US has some very tempting options…
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@ncscswitch:
You need the DST at Pearl to prevent the SUB from submerging. If you let the SUB live, the US has some very tempting options…
What would you use the sub for, if it was the only piece surviving the Pearl attack?
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A sneak shot and fodder for one hell of a US counter in the Pacific… 2 FIGs, 1 BOM, 1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 SUB, 1 DST.
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@ncscswitch:
A sneak shot and fodder for one hell of a US counter in the Pacific… 2 FIGs, 1 BOM, 1 BB, 1 TRN, 1 SUB, 1 DST.
I’m pretty sure the DST can’t reach Pearl on a US1 Counterattack which would probably be your only chance.
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You are correct, it cannot reach Pearl on US1.
But the point is that if the SUB survives, then the US has a vaible 4 ship fleet in the Pacific… 5 if they add an AC, 7 if they add the Hawaii and Western FIGs.
Now Japan has some serious issues to deal with.
But if Pearl ends up 100% dead, including the SUB… then the US is looking at MASSIVE cash to the Pacific in order to be a threat to Japan, instead of just 16 or 24 IPC in order to be a serious threat.
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So you think that if Japan only gets 2 hits on the first round you would submerge the sub instead of leaving the FIG alive?
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Yep.
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Actually, I’m not so much worried about the sub living through pearl as I am the thought of loosing my precious fighters to defender shots. That’s why I bring the Sub/Destroyer…I don’t actually count on them for the battle as much as I count on them to soak up 100% of return fire.
It also means I don’t need my capital ships which keeps them safe from American retalliation.
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