Thanks to everyone for clearing that up. :)
What's the consensus on a standard bid?
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No one’s saying it’s the same game. But the important differences between Art and Arm are not greatly affected by the switch to LL. Cost / unit count per IPC remains the same, skew remains the same, mobility remainst the same, TRN capacity remains the same.
“Flowery logic”. Pah!
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If you want to discount that with flowery logic, that’s your prerogative. But let’s not try to pretend that LL is the same as ADS only without the extremes. It’s not. It forces battles that would be in doubt into absolute certainty by skewing the bell curve so that the center encompasses more of the extreme results and shrinking the extremes.
I do not want to repeat myself for a third time. LL has a LOT of uncertainty. 1 inf 1 art is not guaranteed to win against 1 inf. Not at all. Where’s this absolute certainty you speak of? Since when did 1 inf + 1 art have a 100% hit rate?
Do I have to point out again that attacking the baltic has the exact same range of results, from 0 planes living to all 3 living? Or that attacking a lone tran with a lone bom has the same results? Or that many standard attacks have the same range of variation minus the extremes?
In a ten round game, that’s 30 attacks. Or, roughly, 30 Infantry + 30 Artillery or 30 Infantry + 30 Armor. That’s a difference of 30 IPC in cost (+6 Infantry + 4 Artillery!) and you can get away with that in LL because the massive increase in hitting ability already granted to you from the very nature of LL is the same regardless of if you are using artillery or armor to accompany your forces. (Not to mention you take a 50/50 battle and make it a 67/33 battle meaning you have much better odds of taking the land in one round then you normally would.)
But what the heck, I guess the German fighters disappeared and every single battle you are using arm/art. No.
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@Ender:
No one’s saying it’s the same game. But the important differences between Art and Arm are not greatly affected by the switch to LL. Cost / unit count per IPC remains the same, skew remains the same, mobility remainst the same, TRN capacity remains the same.
“Flowery logic”. Pah!
Really? Cost/Unit Count is the same between Inf/Art and Inf/Arm? You get a discount on your armor, or you just paying too much for your artillery?
Really? Mobility remains the same? Your armor cannot move two spaces? Or you have trains to move your artillery around?
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@Cmdr:
@Ender:
No one’s saying it’s the same game. But the important differences between Art and Arm are not greatly affected by the switch to LL. Cost / unit count per IPC remains the same, skew remains the same, mobility remainst the same, TRN capacity remains the same.
“Flowery logic”. Pah!
Really? Cost/Unit Count is the same between Inf/Art and Inf/Arm? You get a discount on your armor, or you just paying too much for your artillery?
Really? Mobility remains the same? Your armor cannot move two spaces? Or you have trains to move your artillery around?
Re-read what I wrote. The DIFFERENCES between Art and Arm remain the same. Whether ADS or LL, your tanks are still more mobile, more expensive, etc.
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But in ADS your tanks hit 50% of the time while your artillery hit only 33% of the time. Meanwhile, in LL those individual ratings are meaningless, only your over all punch. Thus, the game is significantly DIFFERENT from ADS. Which is the entire POINT of the evaluations to begin with.
I don’t care if you use 1 Inf attached to 1 Art or 1 Arm, or if you use 10 Inf attached to 10 Art or 10 Arm. The results are different (significantly higher for LL than ADS) which means that the strategies employed are NOT the same. (Well, they could be, if you CHOSE to make them the same, but realistic players are going to adjust their combat forces, their purchases and their moves accordingly to maximize and exploit LL. Moves, purchases and combat forces they may not have chosen in ADS.)
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@ncscswitch:
Welcome back
I’m back with the nerds, where I belong.
:-D
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@Mazer:
@ncscswitch:
Welcome back
I’m back with the nerds, where I belong.
:-D
Isn’t it kind of contradictory to label your own group? Shouldn’t you say something more like, I’m back with the cool people where I belong? =)
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Bean, know thyself.
I do.
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You’re not going to send me back to Battle School, are you? :-o
(btw if you didn’t know this is wes/wsc150)
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Nah…
We’re nerds. :mrgreen:
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Speak for yourself Ike, you have like what how many days logged in? Over 100 over just the last 2 years??!
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@Cmdr:
But in ADS your tanks hit 50% of the time while your artillery hit only 33% of the time. Meanwhile, in LL those individual ratings are meaningless, only your over all punch. Thus, the game is significantly DIFFERENT from ADS. Which is the entire POINT of the evaluations to begin with.
What is the difference between a stack with 4 inf 4 art in ADS and a stack of 4 inf 4 art in LL?
What is the difference between a stack of 4 inf 4 tanks in ADS and 4 inf 4 tanks in LL?Players don’t use different buying strats usually.
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@Cmdr:
But in ADS your tanks hit 50% of the time while your artillery hit only 33% of the time. Meanwhile, in LL those individual ratings are meaningless, only your over all punch. Thus, the game is significantly DIFFERENT from ADS. Which is the entire POINT of the evaluations to begin with.
What is the difference between a stack with 4 inf 4 art in ADS and a stack of 4 inf 4 art in LL?
What is the difference between a stack of 4 inf 4 tanks in ADS and 4 inf 4 tanks in LL?Players don’t use different buying strats usually.
Shouldn’t the questions be:
In ADS, What is the difference between a stack with 4 inf 4 art and a stack of 4 inf 4 tanks?
In LL, What is the difference between a stack of 4 inf 4 art and 4 inf 4 tanks?My brain hurts…
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@Ender:
@Cmdr:
But in ADS your tanks hit 50% of the time while your artillery hit only 33% of the time. Meanwhile, in LL those individual ratings are meaningless, only your over all punch. Thus, the game is significantly DIFFERENT from ADS. Which is the entire POINT of the evaluations to begin with.
What is the difference between a stack with 4 inf 4 art in ADS and a stack of 4 inf 4 art in LL?
What is the difference between a stack of 4 inf 4 tanks in ADS and 4 inf 4 tanks in LL?Players don’t use different buying strats usually.
Shouldn’t the questions be:
In ADS, What is the difference between a stack with 4 inf 4 art and a stack of 4 inf 4 tanks?
In LL, What is the difference between a stack of 4 inf 4 art and 4 inf 4 tanks?My brain hurts…
I use significantly different buying strategies in LL then I do with ADS. Why bother building any tanks at all when I get identical punch with Artillery and thus, identical results! Tanks are just expensive artillery in LL, except they can blitz (which is why I don’t just throw away the tanks I start with as worthless cannon fodder.)
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Jennifer, you’re so wrong.
Tanks are still different for many reasons:
- the ability to blitz (as you noted)
- a range of 2 zones - compare the territories that an Art can potentially reach in combat or NCM from Eastern Europe to what a tank can reach. Range of 2 is different from blitzing.
- Punch of 3. Skew. When the supporting Inf is gone, you still have attack of 3, unlike Art which only have 2 on their own.
It is not as though in LL all your units die at once. Your fodder still dies first. Artillery boosts the attack strength of your fodder. This is relevant whether you are attacking 1 Inf 1 Art v. 1 Inf, or 10 Inf 10 Art v. 15 Inf. If your firepower comes from tanks, you can keep attacking better in later rounds of the battle once fodder is stripped away.
It’s just too simplistic to say that they are the same in punch (4) and therefore get the same # of hits in LL. That is only true for the first round of a battle.
And don’t underrate mobility. Why do you think fighters cost 10 IPCs? Because of all the places they can go, and the speed with which they can get there.
I’m already looking forward to the creative way you will find to miss my point here.
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but artillary is cheaper and in effect you can buy more units. it’s a balance, i’m not arguing ether of the two above points, i am simply pointing out a flaw in Ender’s logic as he pointed out a flaw in Jennifer’s. i would personally say they are equal in both ADS and LL as both tanks and artilary come with there own + and -
i would say tank or artilary is just prefrence in ADS and LL, although i can see LL giving artilary more of an advantage then ADS.as for fighters, ya they move better, but they are the only unit type (including bombers) that hit both land and sea, making that alone worth more $. also they have higher deffence, but against them they can’t land in newlly conquored lands (both a blessing and a curse) and have a specal unit made just for killing them. fighers also have the opertunity to get 2 techs, off hand i can’t think of any other unit that has that, again helping both sea and land.
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Okay, let’s talk fighters then.
If you are defending with 2 infantry and I attack you with 1 infantry, 4 fighters the results are as follows:
In LL, I have a 67% chance to take the land.
In ADS, I have a 15% chance to lose a fighter.
How are those the same?
Again, the whole point is that ADS is NOT the same as LL. They are different games with different rules and different tactics. I’ll trade you all the live long day with inf + 4 fig against 2 inf in LL. I have 0% chance to lose a fighter in LL! In ADS, I have to commit at least 2 infantry to make sure I don’t lose a fighter. (Granted I would also only send in one or two fighters, instead of 4.)
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If I attack 2 inf, I will use what is “useful” for this battle. If I attack 4 inf, I will use more attack punch and more units.
There is difference from LL to ADS, but this difference is valid for all battles. I will use other or more units in LL than
ADS, but I will also use more or less units if the defense is strong or weak. To use ftrs/bmrs to attack TT’s with AA guns is not tempting, this can be related to attacking 2 inf with only 1 ground unit + ftrs in ADS.Against a strong opponent Russia cannot afford ftrs usually, but If Russia can get 30 ipc over several rnds then 1 or
2 ftrs can be as good as tanks instead of ftrs, inf/art/tanks are always most useful for Russia.Every game is different.
If Germany buys navy then you cannot move/buy what you could if Germany didn’t buy any fleet.
I just played a game (as allies) in which the axis player used 2-4 Jap units during 3 rnds against US. So I had to do some
moves that I don’t do usually. That means less trans, and more tanks+inf, they were needed in Alaska :-DEvery game is different.
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Every game has different tactics. But the same rules. In one game of AAR you don’t have American armor defending at 5 or less and costing 3 IPC. If you did, it wouldn’t be the same game as AAR.
Anyway, you didn’t disprove my theory. 1 Inf + 4 Fighters against 2 Inf defending. 100% no fighter losses in LL. 33% chance of fighter losses in ADS.
Makes a HUGE fracking difference what I attack with, when, and how.
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Check your math. The chance that both inf hit is 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/9 = 11%. The only time in which you should lose a fighter is if both inf hit, because you should retreat if you have no inf screen.
It may be a huge difference, it may not. If you’re the kind of person who likes to take territories and makes sure to do so, it doesn’t make a huge difference because you will send 2-3 inf. If you’re the kind of person who likes economy of force, then maybe you will upgrade to 2 inf instead of 1. But that generally will not dictate how the whole game goes, because that’s nitpicking in nickle and dime territories where generally both sides have enough inf to be able to throw 1-2 inf in each territory anyways.
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