Generally pacific builds consists of a 2 to 1 ratio of subs-destroyer. Following turn is 5-6 bombers. This forces Japan to start building fleet instead of troops for India/China crush.
I just had to give som additional thumbs up fo9r this comment :D Buying other combat ships than subs, dds (Or CW + ftrs) is rarely correct. the 2 to 1 ratio shos that sean knows how fodder works and how it is the most important thing in these battles.
The only reason to stop buying the subs is if japan for some reason dont respond with fleetbuilding and only buys planes instead. But then you should win anyways :D
which is why i said that it didn’t work against a too planeheavy japan. on theory, the DDs + other surface ships ofc needs to be enough to stop all the planes of japan + 2 rounds of plane only builds of japan.
What would prevent japan from attacking your fleet of subs-destroyers with air and a few destroyers. With 20+ planes they can whipe out your whole fleet with minimal losses as subs cant even hit the planes.
I normaly go for a carrier heavy fleet followed by subs destroyers for attacking power. Ideally i want my carriers to bait an early attack from japan that i can crush in the counter and get his carriers and BB out of the way so anzac and UKP can clean up the rest.
New Strategy for Allied Win
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I agree w/ItIsILeClerc, that this is an interesting strat, and definitely in the KJF wheelhouse. The thing that intrigues me is the role of Russia being aggressive, instead of pull back and wait for the massacre. It is a gamey concept though, because it is a compete sell out from history. With that said, it’s not the first sell out that will give you a victory city win, the Japanese are used in a similar fashion all the time. (it’s gamey, but I like it).
Just speculating, but I’m not sure that the speed-bump/Italian can-opener thing is that big of a problem on the path to Egypt. The Idea is to have Egypt stacked, so the Germans will need their inf/art to sack it, and they can only move one space at a time. The earlier path to Moscow would be where you need to watch out for a German mechanized blitz move (opened by the Italians). The Russian capital will be weakly defended, and more likely to fall with a mech/tank blitz, and you don’t want Moscow to fall a round earlier.
It will became apparent very early to the axis (turn 3 at the latest) that the Russians are sacrificing Moscow for the greater good with what is a huge evacuation of the center. Can the Euro axis adjust on the fly and start migrating there slow moving units south? Can the Japanese make a difference other then just playing the victim?
Granted that this is an out of the box version of KJ1, but lets look at some possible counters (that would also be a bit out of the box).
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I’m also doubtful that the US/Russians can take out the Japanese navy by round 6. Like pointed out the US won’t have the units to do it by US6, but maybe factoring in the Russian air strike beforehand. The Japanese would have to help them out though and retreat everything with-in range of the Russian air (would they do that?). The Japanese will see this KJ1 thing coming by J3 at the latest, and can drop a bunch of inf on their capital to hold, or at least make the US build a bigger transport fleet. Plus you need to watch those tricky Japanese, whats to stop them from selling out their side and pull the same crap the Russians did and go straight to the Mid East with their armada and 20 plus air units? The axis don’t need Tokyo to win. With the US hanging around the Sea of Japan, they would be late for the party. Japan selling out its side to help win on the Euro side isn’t uncommon.
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I agree that Italy could play an important role. With the UK needing to protect London, do they smack the Italian navy UK1? This could be important later w/o US intervention if the axis can use Italian transports to move slower moving German units across the Med (maybe German the IC on S France, or built on Yugo/Greece producing their own transports).
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What about a G3/G4 Axis Neutral Crush once the Germans see the Russians evac the center, and no US on the Euro side, they could get the big three Sweden, Spain, and Turkey. Besides pumping up axis income, Turkey opens up the Mid East oil NO’s. It also gives their mechanized units a quicker path to Egypt from the Germany IC one round faster then going through Russia (tanks built in Germany G6 get to Egypt G10 through Turkey). If Germany built an IC in Romania early on (as they do in many games), then mechanized units built there only take 3 turns to get to Egypt. Romanian transports moving German inf/art through the straight to North Africa (Egypt) in one turn could be a game changer. I realize that the Russians would have a large contingent around the Mid East, and would present a problem, but could they hold this new path, now that the fight most likely moves to Turkey? By then if the Japanese bailed on the Pac they could be threatening Egypt with the Russians fighting in Turkey. Again the Italians could play a big role in the Mid East ground game, especially if they still have a navy. Its all speculation, and timing, but would be fun to play out!
Just some food for thought
WB -
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Hello again, MeinHerr.
In contrast to your previous strategy (perk up our interests? lol), I find this one much more interesting.
I can indeed see many holes and assumptions that can backfire, but I find it interesting enough to go try it out myself. Analyze it through and through before speaking out in favor or against it. Some directions seem to cross each other, but I get the main important idea:
Have the USSR make a stand as far east as possible (Buryatia? Amur? wherever they are not wiped out, obviously) and have them (help) killing Japanese ships and RAIDs on Japanese ICs. Have the allied not care about loosing Moscow and trade it for Tokyo, while holding Egypt is standard in KJF’s, but you take it to the next level! I know that completely neutering Tokyo quickly is also worth it (as opposed to take it, if that is still not possible).Now for some holes that still -possibly- need to be worked on (I need to see it on the board to be certain, and I will, but this is what comes up from scratch):
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Russian speedbumps of 1 INF each territory preventing Germany from reaching Egypt GE11? Italian can-openers! Each Russian speedbump needs to be stronger than the Italian can-opening strength, which typically is (in a G4 at least) 2INF, 2ART, 2MECH, 2ARM, 3FTR, 2STR. And their STR-builds can be increased, mind you (especially if the USA is absent because of KJF).
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You speak of holding Egypt with the help of Russian FTR, ARM, MECH but I thought they were going to the east to close the deal on Japan? Anyway, I get the picture (I think). I think you mean to say that not all Russian ARM, FTR need to go to the east (since the USSR also buys new ones).
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SZ6 must be cleared of Japanese ships US5. I don’t see the USA do that. Not if it gets into the war US4. Remeber USA has placement-restrictions as long as it’s not at war. Only 3 units can be placed in the Pac every turn. So, excess ships must go into Europe and sail out to the Pac, not being able to reach Japan in time (US5 is perhaps a bit too soon). Russia maybe? I haven’t calculated their number of aircraft, but I doubt they’ll have enough to kill the Japanese armada, that will most certainly stack together on a suspected KJF…
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There’s more but I think this is enough for now. Like I said, I find it interesting enough to go try it out myself and ‘calculate it through’ on the game board. In the near future, not immediately >.<
Still, if this is going to work (and why not, it looks like another, more out of the box, ‘KJF’-variant and KJF is already widely accepted as viable AFAIK), it is another slap in the face of any ‘GIF’ grand strategies, as this clearly is another ‘JF’ strategy.
Maybe Russia can play a similar role in 'GIF’s; buying lots of air to suicide-attack ‘fortress Italy’ with, so that the USA can invade it and take out Rome for Moscow… I just don’t like any game mechanic where Russia looses everything (production + all their territories) but their standing army.To be continued.
Thank you for your comments.
Now… here i kept to the simplest assumptions:
- Japan doe NOT stack up Manchuria/Korea… but rather does its kill China …set up to do a J2 or a J3 strike
- That they play the usual 1-2 TRs unloaded in SZ 20, 19 or 36…
ie: Japan plays the “normal” game
The deal is this… the EARLIER Japan goes to war… the FASTER it will fall
The LATER Germany goes to war… the FASTER Japan will fall
If Japan goes to war on J2… the US Sub buy on J2 will be in Hawaii and Aleutians…on J3… Will Be taking out the Blockers on J4… in Combo with pre-existing Air … And 4 CC+BB fleet moves to Midway
It will be the same… a turn delayed for J3
TMG if played successfully…. will cost Japan - 1 Round TEMPO… again… its a Major Variable… but its importance CANNOT BE UNDERSTATED in this plan… for not just what i reason before… but also because it costs Japan the 1 - round $$ DEI
USSR IS THE MOST UNDERESTIMATED OFFENSIVE POWER ON THIS BOARD . Everyone playing USSR , usually * Rightly* plays DEFENSE… but… again… with TMG and a diffferent playbook… this could be different.
LASTLY…… the 1ST round of USSR Buy can still be the conventional… esp. if Germany bought a big NAVY. That may keep Germany guessing as to what USSR plans to do… reason… the planes in TINGUSKA… and the Mech and Tank to SIKIANG… CAN BE RECALLED…! ie: You Can “FAKE” this play… with a conventional USSR buy on turn1
IF GERMANY GOES to SEALION… then… Allies can choose… It IS PROBABLY STILL EASIER TO KILL JAPAN… than Germany… unless Sealion becomes a disaster! Because after SeaLion… Germany takes at least 1 turn to recover before it can start pushing East!!!
SO…. all in all… SSB-TMG-MIFF_ KJF ( Soviet Strat Bomber - The Mahatma Gambit- Mahatma’s Imperial Fleet Freeze- Kill Japan First ) is effective especially if :
- Germany buys all Navy on G1 ( esp without TRs)
- Germany tries SeaLion on G3/G4
- Germany buys a Mix of CV + Minor IC on G1
Thanks again!
PS: If Germany does not do Sealion buy on G2… then… UK 2 - Major IC in Egypt… and it has to buy 1 F in UK…each turn… do not buy a big navy… just buy Inf in UK… and F that fly to Egypt Via Gibralter. Secure Gibralter.
PSS: UK India - can do a Shuttle to Egypt at least for 3 turns… once Japan has receded… bringing Egypt strength to 2 Inf ( from SA) + 2 Inf ( from India ) + 3 Inf produced there… + 1 F each turn ( 8 units a turn) from UK 4… As long as Italy does not take it I2… Egypt cannot be taken unless Germany gambles on G5/6 and starts building TRs in S. France… and IC in Yugo… but even then… the investment needed to first, produce the TRs …and then to successfully attack Egypt… will take it till G11… IMHO
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One more thing… lest i forget to mention…
If G2 - NO DOW on USSR… just buy 3 SSBs ( Soviet Strat Bombers ) on R2 … Fly all 3 to Buryatia or India… if India is safe… on R3… From R4 on… Any Japanese TRs - NOT adequately protected - will die. Esp. If the SSB are kept bunched together!!!
UK Strat Bomber does the same! It has to come to W. India by UK3 - if safe…and by UK4 harry the Japanese
The SSB that reach far east either the R2 or 3 buy… can pick off J- TRs too… they have the range… and can land in Interior China…
From R4-5… there are enough SSB… that unless there is at least 1 Loaded CV PER TR… the TR can die. You want Japan… NOT to be able to take the INF back to Japan!!! esp If Japan HAS STACKED Manchuria and Korea !!!
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@WILD:
I agree w/ItIsILeClerc, that this is an interesting strat, and definitely in the KJF wheelhouse. The thing that intrigues me is the role of Russia being aggressive, instead of pull back and wait for the massacre. It is a gamey concept though, because it is a compete sell out from history. With that said, it’s not the first sell out that will give you a victory city win, the Japanese are used in a similar fashion all the time. (it’s gamey, but I like it).
Just speculating, but I’m not sure that the speed-bump/Italian can-opener thing is that big of a problem on the path to Egypt. The Idea is to have Egypt stacked, so the Germans will need their inf/art to sack it, and they can only move one space at a time. The earlier path to Moscow would be where you need to watch out for a German mechanized blitz move (opened by the Italians). The Russian capital will be weakly defended, and more likely to fall with a mech/tank blitz, and you don’t want Moscow to fall a round earlier.
It will became apparent very early to the axis (turn 3 at the latest) that the Russians are sacrificing Moscow for the greater good with what is a huge evacuation of the center. Can the Euro axis adjust on the fly and start migrating there slow moving units south? Can the Japanese make a difference other then just playing the victim?
Granted that this is an out of the box version of KJ1, but lets look at some possible counters (that would also be a bit out of the box).
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I’m also doubtful that the US/Russians can take out the Japanese navy by round 6. Like pointed out the US won’t have the units to do it by US6, but maybe factoring in the Russian air strike beforehand. The Japanese would have to help them out though and retreat everything with-in range of the Russian air (would they do that?). The Japanese will see this KJ1 thing coming by J3 at the latest, and can drop a bunch of inf on their capital to hold, or at least make the US build a bigger transport fleet. Plus you need to watch those tricky Japanese, whats to stop them from selling out their side and pull the same crap the Russians did and go straight to the Mid East with their armada and 20 plus air units? The axis don’t need Tokyo to win. With the US hanging around the Sea of Japan, they would be late for the party. Japan selling out its side to help win on the Euro side isn’t uncommon.
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I agree that Italy could play an important role. With the UK needing to protect London, do they smack the Italian navy UK1? This could be important later w/o US intervention if the axis can use Italian transports to move slower moving German units across the Med (maybe German the IC on S France, or built on Yugo/Greece producing their own transports).
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What about a G3/G4 Axis Neutral Crush once the Germans see the Russians evac the center, and no US on the Euro side, they could get the big three Sweden, Spain, and Turkey. Besides pumping up axis income, Turkey opens up the Mid East oil NO’s. It also gives their mechanized units a quicker path to Egypt from the Germany IC one round faster then going through Russia (tanks built in Germany G6 get to Egypt G10 through Turkey). If Germany built an IC in Romania early on (as they do in many games), then mechanized units built there only take 3 turns to get to Egypt. Romanian transports moving German inf/art through the straight to North Africa (Egypt) in one turn could be a game changer. I realize that the Russians would have a large contingent around the Mid East, and would present a problem, but could they hold this new path, now that the fight most likely moves to Turkey? Again the Italians could play a big role in the Mid East ground game, especially if they still have a navy.
Just some food for thought
WBHi WB…
Thanks for your analysis.
The last point reg. the G3/G4 Neutral crush is important only for 2 things : Will it give Germans a "Short cut " to Egypt… and will the extra $ be enough to help it to get Egypt before Allies can get Tokyo.
Everything depends on Japan as to when they DOW on W. Allies… accordingly their navy gets wiped out. US can modify its buys if there is No J2 or J3 DOW… but will write more about that later… unless you or someone else is interested in pursuing this angle.
Again… R1 buy can be “cloaked”… so as not to offer Axis concrete ideas about Allied kill strategy. R1 is after G1. If G1 Buy is Navy… this automatically becomes viable.
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Finally… One last point…
The USSR1 Air move and the Sikiang move… helps to defuse J1 DOW - Cow’s strategy. At least it provides India a chance to survive the J3 crush possibility
The 3 planes can make it to India by R3 … and the Mech+ Tank can get to Burma R3 and then to India by R4
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Finally… One last point…
The USSR1 Air move and the Sikiang move… helps to defuse J1 DOW - Cow’s strategy. At least it provides India a chance to survive the J3 crush possibility
The 3 planes can make it to India by R3 … and the Mech+ Tank can get to Burma R3 and then to India by R4
It is normal for the US to spend heavy Pac side from the beginning (have more freedom of movement). I like the fact that your Russians are buying some air power and mobile units, and moving them east and south. The Russians generally get into the ready position to get to Iraq, and I like to show a little Russian muscle in China vs Japan (that can be recalled if needed). On R2 when they keep all the Siberians to the east (to slow to come back), continue to move mechanized units in that direction, and start buying S bmrs the gig is up even w/o considering the USA has also spent Pac (Japan knows it’s in trouble J2, and Tojo will send a telegram to Hitler LOL). I get the fact that you are sacrificing Moscow (Leningrad, and Stalingrad as well) for Tokyo, but the axis don’t need Tokyo to win. The Japanese need to either drag it out keeping the US tied up, or sell out their side of the board (as the Russians did) to win the game in Egypt.
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@WILD:
Finally… One last point…
The USSR1 Air move and the Sikiang move… helps to defuse J1 DOW - Cow’s strategy. At least it provides India a chance to survive the J3 crush possibility
The 3 planes can make it to India by R3 … and the Mech+ Tank can get to Burma R3 and then to India by R4
It is normal for the US to spend heavy Pac side from the beginning (have more freedom of movement). I like the fact that your Russians are buying some air power and mobile units, and moving them east and south. The Russians generally get into the ready position to get to Iraq, and I like to show a little Russian muscle in China vs Japan (that can be recalled if needed). On R2 when they keep all the Siberians to the east (to slow to come back), continue to move mechanized units in that direction, and start buying S bmrs the gig is up even w/o considering the USA has also spent Pac (Japan knows it’s in trouble J2, and Tojo will send a telegram to Hitler LOL). I get the fact that you are sacrificing Moscow (Leningrad, and Stalingrad as well) for Tokyo, but the axis don’t need Tokyo to win. The Japanese need to either drag it out, or sell out their side of the board (as the Russians did) to win the game in Egypt.
Well, yes Gig is up. But then if there is no G2 DOW on USSR… it does not matter!
There are blocker units in the Indian Ocean that can slow the IJF !!!
Japan on J2 has to make a crucial decision!!!
If it does not DOW on W. Allies on J2… repeat NOT… and TMG is played… then… FORSAKING the DEI… it will go to India?!! The R2 buy will be in India on R3…all those TRs need protection!
on J3 it can go to Malaya+Borneo… on J4 it can go to SZ 38 ( blocked by French DD ( Burma) and SZ 41 blocked by ANZAC DD( Sumatra ) …
on J4 the fleet reaches India… It is too late. India would have turtled. USSR has option of bringing its 3 planes into India… with its T+ M at that point… NOT to mention the 3 SSB from R2 buy! I highly doubt Japan can take India at that point.
on UK 4, Egypt fleet starts its blocking maneuvers . CRU to 80, DD to 79 … J5 is stuck there…
By this time Egypt will be impervious to the 6 planes Japan brings on 3 CVs… Japan cannot strike Egypt… till J7 … let alone take it.Remember the collapsing USSR land army is headed South! There are USSR SSB in India! India is still making Mechs+ tanks… SO Japan can forget taking and holding any Middle East land , because those troops will get killed… Then the Japanese Airforce cannot land… takes IJAF out of the picture!
By J4/5… Japan will have to worry about getting home! And it may get wiped out in between… or Not make it on time
If Japan DOW’s in J2… it is even worse! US builds as stated before… and can move…out! So on J3 , 4, 5 … what is Japan building? How long will it take US to kill this. Can it happen before ANZAC 10?
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I call this strategy SovietMAhatmaKillJapanFirst aka –- SMAKJF !
There is one change i would like to make… on R1… the Tac Bomber from Russia should go to Sikiang. The other 2 planes to Tinguska.
Once G1 buy is Navy, and Allies decide SMAKJF is the way to go… it is almost mandatory for this strategy… that… The Mahatma Gambit be played on UK1
If Japan does NOT take the gambit… on J2… but suppose Japan plays this:
J2 Buy = 1 Airbase in Kwangsi. has 15 planes there…
J2 move is the entire combined Fleet in Peace to SZ 38 or SZ41 ( This means 2 or 3 Loaded TR+ 3 loaded CV+ 2 BB+ 2 CV+ whatever else )
J2 Combat takes Yunnan with either Tank+ Inf ( from Unloaded TR) …+ say 3 Inf+Art - from Hunan ( suppose they all survived on J1) … 3+10 = 13 DFP + 6 piecesEverything then depends on China then… on China 2… they should be able to clear it. If they cannot , and just 1 tank remains… then… the Russians should be able to clear it with …Mech+ Tank+ TB… and TB should land in India!
And UK-India does NOT have to declare… and it can turtle.
UK BB from Hong Kong can decide to go to SZ 46 ( New Guinea) …or if there are 2-3 TR buys on J2… then they get frozen with a J3 DOW… which is very likely.
Now continuing… if on J3… it does DOW… tries to take India… No Shore Bombardment… as French DD stops that… it will be 8 planes ( 2 SB + 3 TB + 3 F) + 6 land units ( max) … against 3AAA+ 2 TB+ 3 ANZAC F+ 2 UK F + Lots of Inf !
India should be safe.
… The US buys then have to be calculated accordingly from US 2 onward…
( US2 - 9 Subs. 3 each in ATL, GOM, PAC… there will be 5 Subs in Pacific… the 6 from Atlantic will get to Hawaii by US5)
(US3 - 2 TB+ 3 F)
( US4 - 6 SBs) … and so on and so forth. -
Couple things, if the Germans don’t DOW against Russia until G3, then those Russian ground units can’t be in India R3. They can’t move through the Persia’s, and I don’t believe they can fly over the Persia’s either.
I would need clarification if the Russian planes stationed in Sikang flying the 4 spaces over the Burma road would be able to land in India (all on the Pac map). If at war w/Japan the Russians can move units into China because the Japanese are also at war w/China, but I’m not sure they are allowed to move any units into India if the UK is still not at war w/Japan.
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Like I said: I like the ‘unusual’ take on the otherwise usual KJF.
Using the Soviets offensively by just saying “crap, if it’s going to be THAT difficult to hold Moscow then u can have it for free but before I go I do some damage slap axis face”, would also be a nice newcomer (for me at least). If it works.I must say Wild Bill’s comment about Japan selling their side out had me lol about it :-D. That would be a volatile, wild, out-of-the-box game! Both sides have a Major Power selling themselves out. Muahahahaha! I think Japan needs to be careful with the timing of such a move, but this can be a potential wrench in the gear for the allies if timed well. Imagine Germany attacking Egypt, only barely loosing because of all the Russians there and then Japan finishing Egypt off while also blocking off the allies from retaking it for 1 turn… axis win in Europe. That would be a fun scenario!
And -another good point from WB: Italy. Italy is the wildcard here. And Italy will be strong if the USA is unavailable to tango with.
Russia is indeed also limited to move in areas of allied partners they share a ‘wartreaty’ with. So indeed if Germany has not yet DOWed Russia, Russia cannot move through the ME (or fly air into Egypt). One of the reasons why Germany sometimes goes G4 -if Russian interference would be the only thing stopping Italy (or Germany itself) from taking Egypt.
lastly, if Russia will sell itself out, Germany and Italy can have larger fleets in the med (and still easily overrun Moscow), to ferry >10 cheap land units into Africa/ME per turn, via this sea route alone already.
Interesting. I’ll have fun trying this out, ‘JF’ wheel or not :-D.
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@WILD:
Couple things, if the Germans don’t DOW against Russia until G3, then those Russian ground units can’t be in India R3. They can’t move through the Persia’s, and I don’t believe they can fly over the Persia’s either.
I would need clarification if the Russian planes stationed in Sikang flying the 4 spaces over the Burma road would be able to land in India (all on the Pac map). If at war w/Japan the Russians can move units into China because the Japanese are also at war w/China, but I’m not sure they are allowed to move any units into India if the UK is still not at war w/Japan.
Thanks for clarification.
Then would it be better to send T+M in Moscow to Khazak…, T+ Mech in Stalingrad to Sikiang… and TB Planes to Sikiang… in effort to kill J1 ?
Other 2 planes go to Tinguska to give the Soviet20 support for move into Amur ( if safe) on R2 .
To me… G1 Navy build and J1 strike combo has always been the most dangerous combo so far… (since i had this planned) . The G4J4 is the most rosy scenario for SMAKJF :evil:
Threat of SMAKJF KEEPS Axis FROM THIS COMBO.
And the “prelude”… moving the 1 planes and 2 Tanks+ 2 Mechs east… “defuses” J1 threat considerably… as even if Japan builds the Airbase in Kwangsi…, it cannot land in Yunnan… as long as the Soviets back up the Chinese ability to re-take it on R2 and R3… the most crucial turns.
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Like I said: I like the ‘unusual’ take on the otherwise usual KJF.
Using the Soviets offensively by just saying “crap, if it’s going to be THAT difficult to hold Moscow then u can have it for free but before I go I do some damage slap axis face”, would also be a nice newcomer (for me at least). If it works.I must say Wild Bill’s comment about Japan selling their side out had me lol about it :-D. That would be a volatile, wild, out-of-the-box game! Both sides have a Major Power selling themselves out. Muahahahaha! I think Japan needs to be careful with the timing of such a move, but this can be a potential wrench in the gear for the allies if timed well. Imagine Germany attacking Egypt, only barely loosing because of all the Russians there and then Japan finishing Egypt off while also blocking off the allies from retaking it for 1 turn… axis win in Europe. That would be a fun scenario!
And -another good point from WB: Italy. Italy is the wildcard here. And Italy will be strong if the USA is unavailable to tango with.
Russia is indeed also limited to move in areas of allied partners they share a ‘wartreaty’ with. So indeed if Germany has not yet DOWed Russia, Russia cannot move through the ME (or fly air into Egypt). One of the reasons why Germany sometimes goes G4 -if Russian interference would be the only thing stopping Italy (or Germany itself) from taking Egypt.
lastly, if Russia will sell itself out, Germany and Italy can have larger fleets in the med (and still easily overrun Moscow), to ferry >10 cheap land units into Africa/ME per turn, via this sea route alone already.
Interesting. I’ll have fun trying this out, ‘JF’ wheel or not :-D.
IF UK can put in an IC in Egypt on UK 2 , and hold it past I2 , the transport Shuttle from South Africa, + 2 planes produced in Egypt every turn + RAF already there should be enough to take out the Italian invasion… and then the Fleet if not well defended. The same reason… Japan is very unlikely to ever take Egypt . The IJF will be “conveniently” on SZ 80 on J5 turn… when 6 SSB+ TB… if need be… hit them… then if they persist… they get hit by RAF from Egypt, and if they retreat, planes from India… The IJF moving past SZ 41 on or after J3 means it is useless for defense of the home Islands… because the will not be back in time.
Italy is a different matter… and iam still figuring them out… :wink:
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I’m so glad you found A&A.org, so I don’t have to shoot down your insane strategies in person! Now you can bounce ideas off everyone else.
I’d like to see the Allies go all out on a KJF, but again it all depends on what the Axis does.
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So… you are “The Robbie” :wink: of the Bielenfeld maneuver fame !
Nice to meet you on this forum !!! :evil:
Honestly, ever since our game after Txgiving… i have been OCD about this strategy ( cuz i could not play the whole thing - just the TMG-MIFF) … did not have the guts to propose it in person for fear of being banned from future games… for being irrational… :-o
Today is the first day iam coming back to my “Normal ground/steady state”
At least got it off my chest.
Your comments welcome.
BTW, the 3 ART in UKR with the ART from W. Ukr with Inf and the 6 ART in Moscow will head South with Inf to “Seal” the Caucuses… in event of G3 /G4 attack on Turkey.
All the Leningrad Inf+ Baltic+ Arch will start moving south from R1 to Belarus… and then R2 to Bryansk … R3 Rostov
The Karelia+ Vyborg Inf will hold off the delaying action in the North.
R1 buy and moves can always be reversed should Germany try something else. USSR can still switch to “conventional” game on R2…
Suggestions plz., worried about G1 complex in Romania…as WB said… it might void this strategy.
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My initial thought, which hasn’t been addressed at all, is: how is the UK gonna protect London? In your strategy they are putting 19 IPCs minimum a turn into Egypt. What does that leave for London?
On R1, Germany is gonna see a Russia that is going aggressive in the East, but maybe ignores it. After R2 it is very obvious to Germany that Russia is selling out Moscow to try and crush Japan. At this point (after a G2 build which was probably all German fast), Germany might need one more turns worth of fast units for Russia, but that’s it. Thus starting with the G4 purchase, German can be putting at least half of its income at London. With a strong Italy also pressuring Egypt, I just don’t see how London is holding both VCs.
Even if Germany is still sending units east, they can use their air-force to max bomb the London factory while subs convoy. I don’t see how the UK can possibly hold out against this onslaught. I haven’t played it out, but I’m really having a hard time imagining the UK (which is making less than 30 because of convoys and losing its NO) being able to hold out against half of Germany (turn 5 income somewhere around 60, but that will jump to 90 very quickly once it takes Moscow and the wealthy Russian territories) and all of Italy (making at least 25 since there are no ships in the med and they should have Gibraltar). Egypt probably falls before any Russians even get there, or if it doesn’t then London will fall sometime around turn 7.
Japan’s air-force and fleet aren’t something that is going to go down easily either.
Fun gambit strategy that would possibly work against an axis player that always goes G4/J4 and won’t be able to adapt effectively, but against a good axis player who will recognize that Germany can throw a lot of its resources against the UK I just don’t see it ever working.
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Fun strategy to think about, but the main problem is that egypt falls 100% on gerant0 or 11. That is game over… Even if uk had 50 units there and russia had 20 it still wouldnt be enough. Germany will have at least 60 ground and 30 planes.
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Fun strategy to think about, but the main problem is that egypt falls 100% on gerant0 or 11. That is game over… Even if uk had 50 units there and russia had 20 it still wouldnt be enough. Germany will have at least 60 ground and 30 planes.
Well, in your opinion, how long will it take the Allies to get Tokyo… should the play go as described…
ie: Around which turn? ( Assume Egypt and London are still in Allied hands) -
My initial thought, which hasn’t been addressed at all, is: how is the UK gonna protect London? In your strategy they are putting 19 IPCs minimum a turn into Egypt. What does that leave for London?
On R1, Germany is gonna see a Russia that is going aggressive in the East, but maybe ignores it. After R2 it is very obvious to Germany that Russia is selling out Moscow to try and crush Japan. At this point (after a G2 build which was probably all German fast), Germany might need one more turns worth of fast units for Russia, but that’s it. Thus starting with the G4 purchase, German can be putting at least half of its income at London. With a strong Italy also pressuring Egypt, I just don’t see how London is holding both VCs.
Even if Germany is still sending units east, they can use their air-force to max bomb the London factory while subs convoy. I don’t see how the UK can possibly hold out against this onslaught. I haven’t played it out, but I’m really having a hard time imagining the UK (which is making less than 30 because of convoys and losing its NO) being able to hold out against half of Germany (turn 5 income somewhere around 60, but that will jump to 90 very quickly once it takes Moscow and the wealthy Russian territories) and all of Italy (making at least 25 since there are no ships in the med and they should have Gibraltar). Egypt probably falls before any Russians even get there, or if it doesn’t then London will fall sometime around turn 7.
Japan’s air-force and fleet aren’t something that is going to go down easily either.
Fun gambit strategy that would possibly work against an axis player that always goes G4/J4 and won’t be able to adapt effectively, but against a good axis player who will recognize that Germany can throw a lot of its resources against the UK I just don’t see it ever working.
BRAINWAVE No#1 - Keep German Income Low!
What if G1 buy is whatever… and USSR 1 buy is nothing.
What if G2 buy is fast land units… ( may or may not DOW) … If No DOW … USSR Stacks everything ( land units ) in Leningrad and Rostov …and USSR buys 6 SBs ( 3 in Leningrad, 3 in Moscow)
What if G3 ( definite DOW) buy is more land units and USSR buys 3 more SSB ( Leningrad if safe) …
.Counterattack Baltic States with 6 SBs and all inf+ Art in Leningrad… 3 SB’s land in London … 3 SBs in Leningrad ( if safe) … put new buy in Leningrad if safe
G4 will take Baltic and hold for sure… STRAT BOMB GERMANY+ W. Germany with 9 SSB ( 3 from London + 6 from Leningrad)
R4 buy 3 more SBs… these go via North to Scotland on R5Each turn thereafter…12 SSB will hammer Germany for average loss of 48-60 IPC a turn ( yes… there will be a loss of SBs over time…!)
Hopefully allowing UK to survive till ANZAC 10.
BRAINWAVE #2
OK… lets go with putting more on UK… and less on Egypt.
UK2 for $34 ( assuming No Sealion buy from G2) can be IC + TR+2 Inf in South Africa + 3 Inf in UK ( UK India TR goes back to India from Sumatra…if it survives… if not buy TR on UK3 in India if safe)
UK3 for $36 - 3 Inf in Egypt + 2 Inf in South Africa + 7 Inf in UK
UK4 for $36 - 3 Inf in Egypt+ 2 Inf in SA + 7 Inf in UK … India TR starts moving load 2 Inf from India to Ethiopia… up also … ( gig is up!) ( Inf from SA start marching on foot)
UK5 for $36 - 3 Inf in Egypt + whatever in UK… India TR helps get guys up to Egypt…
UK6 onward… build in UK only…Egypt will have about 22 Inf + few planes… London will have 30+ Inf by - - - - UK 6
Now… lets look at Japan.
If J2 DOW…,
Japan gets DEI on J3 …
and then it will start concentrating around Phillippines by J4…and Hawaii Fleet will be SZ 16 by US4…
and Japan will have to make a decision… make a stand … go to Carolines… or retreat homeward… or go on toward India on J5…
If they retreat… ANZAC takes Islands… Japan is bottled up… and all US needs to do is to keep them bottled up…
The US5 buy of 6 SB can be on Atlantic… and sent to London on US6… and they can help keep up the pressure to reduce German Income.So German attack on UK is delayed… but Japan will not have to deal with Soviet SBs…and 1 US turn of buys…
but the attrition in Pacific leans on side of Allies… while in Europe … on that of Axis.Japan has to deal with US, ANZAC, UK India, China and USSR… It’ll be 4 economies to one…
Which side will win first?!
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One thing that really strikes me with this strategy is the idea of sacrificing Moscow. In our games, we kind of expect Moscow to fall but only with a strong, dedicated German push and a massive defense with Russia holding it as long as possible so the Western Allies can put the hurt on Germany from the west. Sometimes Russia will go more offensively and actually attack the German armies pushing into Russia. Sometimes if Germany doesn’t have quite enough in the east, due perhaps to building more defense against the west, then it works for Russia. They either wipe out a German army or leave it weak enough that it no longer presents a real offensive threat.
However, I never thought of Russia making no defensive buys and basically giving up on defending Moscow in order to make offensive moves elsewhere to hurt one or more of the Axis.
Using strategic bombers from Russia to pound German industry is really interesting. Especially if the UK and US can add to it. Germany could end up spending a lot of money to repair factories instead of buying units.One thing I am curious about. I see a lot of references to something called “TMG”. I must have missed this in earlier posts. What does “TMG” stand for?
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Fun gambit strategy that would possibly work against an axis player that always goes G4/J4 and won’t be able to adapt effectively, but against a good axis player who will recognize that Germany can throw a lot of its resources against the UK I just don’t see it ever working.
Exactly why the allies have such a difficult time!
They can conjure a counter for every axis strategy but then the axis are flexible enough to move into the allied weak spots that inevitably came with their strategy. And the magic word is: aircraft. German air (for example), are able to quickly change position. Turn x they can threaten to take Egypt and/or Gibralar, turn x+1 they are already in place for an attack on London if they so desire. RAF can defend Egypt turn x, but cannot be in place for defending London turn x+1.This basically means that the allies have to be cautious during the first ~7 turns so that the axis can always play out what they had planned.
That’s why exotic strategies, however fun they may be, usually have such a short life. There’s too much both sides can do to each other and after a short but volatile game the axis usualy win simply because they start with a better central position.I just wonder how this one would play out, as it definately qualifies as ‘exotic’.
I seriously think it cannot be dismissed or declared a universal panacea either, before it has been tried. Still always fun to discuss it, just to gather as much ideas as possible before trying it out.
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