@caesar-seriona Historically Mussolini declares war when there is no doubt Paris is going to fall to Germany.In a G40 game Germany often combat moves through N.Italy and NCM air units to S.Italy,both of which require Italy to be not neutral.
So to keep Italy neutral until UKs turn Germany would need to retreat from Paris{leave it for Italy to take perhaps}and NOT enter Italian territory G1.
AARHE: Phase 2: Adding Italy to the game.
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It’s going to be a lot harder to model historic lend-lease outcomes with actual convoy units. With actual convoy units why ever send IPCs to Russia? It’s too dangerous because Germany has a lot more chances to sink it, and it takes 1-2 turns longer to get there, thus making it 1-2 turns longer before you can convert those IPCs to troops.
How many IPCs can a transport unit carry? It’s it’s a small number (like 3 max), then you’ll need a lot of transports and that costs a lot of money and time. If on the other hand it’s a large number (like 8 max), and intuitively that transport is either sunk or not, then the Allies lose either 0 IPCs or 8 IPCs. It looks like we got more of an all or nothing scenario instead of a certain fraction being sunk every turn.
There are probably other reasons, but I think I’ve expressed my concerns over this enough. Just my 2 cents.
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HMMM thats correct and i was thinking of the need for one tranny to carry the goodies. I do also see problems with this rule…OK idea for every axis sub in the atlantic the allies lose one IPC of aid to either the UK or Soviet player. That is simple and wont destroy all the aid. and also allows the germans the ability to do something.
Also looking at the list the lend lease aid can only be armor or air units… no infantry. WE cant be sending men to Stalin to fight his war.
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@Imperious:
AS for how the lend lease is carried i feel it should be secret that some transports will have to be ferried to archangel carrying an undisclosed amount of aid with each transport able to carry the entire 10 IPC cargo. So the trick is the axis will have to try to attack these not knowing what was written down before the tranny left eastern USA.
That would be beauty. The guessing.
If on the other hand it’s a large number (like 8 max), and intuitively that transport is either sunk or not, then the Allies lose either 0 IPCs or 8 IPCs. It looks like we got more of an all or nothing scenario instead of a certain fraction being sunk every turn.
Yeah all or nothing would be bad.
@Imperious:
HMMM thats correct and i was thinking of the need for one tranny to carry the goodies. I do also see problems with this rule…
Yeah its costly to dedicate transport for lend-lease. We could give them more transports but that could be overly powerful if all used to carry units. And sending subs or destroyers to support the convoy is probably a wrong scale. You don’t need a whole destroyer fleet (1 DD piece).
@Imperious:
OK idea for every axis sub in the atlantic the allies lose one IPC of aid to either the UK or Soviet player. That is simple and wont destroy all the aid. and also allows the germans the ability to do something.
Yeah we’ve probably reinvented the circle and now realise why OOB U-Boat interdiction rule is like what it is. Complexity.
Small improvement: several SZs to represent different convoy paths. So to preserve the proposed guessing game as it really enhances strategy. Decoy. Influencing military movements. US can send to Russia via North Altantic or North Pacific. While US can send to UK via one safe path.
@Imperious:
Also looking at the list the lend lease aid can only be armor or air units… no infantry. WE cant be sending men to Stalin to fight his war.
Actually lend-lease gives supplies and equipment no? Not pre-made divisions or corps.
So I think they can spend the lend-lease IPC anyway they like. -
@Imperious:
Also looking at the list the lend lease aid can only be armor or air units… no infantry. WE cant be sending men to Stalin to fight his war.
Actually lend-lease gives supplies and equipment no? Not pre-made divisions or corps.
So I think they can spend the lend-lease IPC anyway they like.Exactly, I also thought at first that it could only be for armor and air units. But they received material/ equipment, what also could have been rifles, machine guns or and clothing for soldiers. So indeed they should be able to spent it anyway they like. Only I don’t hope they will receive the max. of 12 allot. That is to much I think. It is 50% of Russia’s total starting income, is that accurate?
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I think 12 IPC is just a starting point. A number this “other” varient used.
We’ve already got numbers on the equipment and supplies to Russia posted by someone.
Now we just need economic numbers of Russia. -
I have something to post along these lines… i just got a book with some info on % of lend lease etc… ill post tonight.
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@Imperious:
I have something to post along these lines… i just got a book with some info on % of lend lease etc… ill post tonight.
Why not just stick to my NA variant and make it a basic rule!?
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Yes right! But can you do it to make it official… your on the team as well and im not sure which one you want to post either europe 1.2 or some revised NA list?
Please post any ideas you want for the project. The NA’s go into phase two.
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@B.:
Why not just stick to my NA variant and make it a basic rule!?
I’ll tell you after reading and critizing them first 8-)
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yes exactly…. post all these NA’s and well pick thru them… don’t give them one at a time.
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But should he post in here or in “National Advantage” thread?
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@Imperious:
National Build (optional)
Italy ( Regia Marina Italiana)= Once per turn, one surface warship ( BB, DD, CV) can be purchased for 2 IPC less than cost.
National Attack (optional)
Italy ( Home Defense) : Every Italian or German INF unit in the first round defending in Original Italian territories gets a +1 defense modifier.
NOW BELOW ARE ALL THE ADDITIOANAL ISSUES POSTED FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLE TO SOLVE THE SAME PROBLEMS:
- HOW TO ADD ITALY
- HOW TO BALANCE THE EXTRA AXIS INCOME
3)ADD LEND LEASE INTO THE GAME TO SOLVE ITEM 2 AND ALSO SOLVE THE IDEA OF BALANCING THE IDEA THAT NO uk/usa FORCES CAN ENTER RUSSIA
Optional Rules:
Italy is a new nation ( the 6th player)
All German units located in Southern Europe, Balkans and Libya is now considered Italian and those territories can be used to purchase only Italian units (light Grey). That gives them a starting IPC value of 10. When choosing NA’s the Italian player can pick 4 NA’s that only affect these units. The Italian player plays following Germany’s turn. The territory of Germany itself has a new value of 20 so their income is not affected.
Lend lease payments
The US player receives 10 extra IPC per turn that can only be sent to either UK or the Soviet Union to represent lend-lease payments during the war. They can also be saved and sent on a latter turn. However, these must be carried on a transport and sent to sea-zone 4 or 34. Up to 10 points of lend lease can be carried on a single transport. This process can be intercepted be any axis player (who has units in range) and the transport (along with its lend lease cargo) can be sunk.Allied Advantage: Lend-Lease
At the end of every US player’s turn, the US player collects 10 extra IPCs and determines how to allocate those IPCs between the UK and Russian players. None of the 10 IPCs may be used by the US player himself. Specific rules to come later as to how these 10 IPCs will be vulnerable to attack by the Axis players. However, the rules will be made so that most of the IPCs will be lost every turn that German subs are present in the Atlantic and consequently allow the Axis and Allied Advantages to balance each other out in approx. value.How about if we keep things as simple as we can get them: For every enemy naval unit in a defined SZ (we can come up with the SZ restrictions later) a certain number of fixed IPCs are surrendered or the enemy ships roll to determine the number of surrendered IPCs so there is some variation. That way, we don’t need to worry about where transports units are, how much they are carrying, the time it takes them to move (we’ll have it so it always takes these invisible convoy ships 1 turn to make it to London or Archangel form E. US). Also, I’m not sure it’s realistic to assume that these amphibs need be grouped in with the convoy ships.
Axis Advantage: Italian Forces
During the Collect Income Phase of the German player’s turn, the IPCs for Southern Europe is double-counted (it’s worth a total of 12 IPCs instead of just 6 IPCs), however, all 12 IPCs must be used to place units in Southern Europe. -
Actually we can just put lend-lease with normal income.
No explicit transports needed. No seperate rule needed.Germany is now 20 IPC. Eastern United States is now 22 IPC, with 10 IPC of it only usable for lend-lease.
At the moment we’ve left it quite weak though.
1 naval unit (except transports) can hit 1 IPC hostile income, on a roll of 3 or less.Why does lend-lease destination have to be SZ 4 or 34?
SZ 4 is Russia? Whats SZ 34? Wheres UK?Convoy rule, unchanged since added to draft 3 weeks ago
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=7551.msg134957#msg134957 -
so then i fit this in where? is this optional rule or what?
Convoy
An IPC path consisting of sea zone(s) is a “Convoyâ€. IPC must enter the sea from the source territory or an adjacent territory. It may then travel to the destination via the minimal number of sea zone or one more sea zone. For example, Australia’s income to be spent at United Kingdom may only travel 8 or 9 sea zones.
Convoy are decided and recorded by the player at end of “Collect Income†phase. It is revealed at beginning of the player’s next “Collect Income†phase. Each hostile naval unit besides AP (transport) in a convoy sea zone may perform a convoy attack roll. 1 IPC of friendly convoys in that sea zone is destroyed on a roll of 3 or less. Damage allocation procedure is the same as team combat causality.Convoy ships were not safe in the sea. Over 1500 allied ships were sunk in 1942 alone. 8300 US merchant mariners were killed at sea in WWII. Convoys are time consuming and the war economy depends on logistics planning, particular for UK and Japan. Due to reducing flexibility as convoys approach their destination, majority of sunken allied convoys were in North Atlantic.
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I think so
US lend-lease is optional and goes with Italy right?Make sure you understand that paragraph about “Convoy” and then just write a short rule about US lend-lease referencing the “Convoy” rule.
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right will do.
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OK so this is what we have in the latest, private, draft at the moment…
Lend Lease
US may load up to 12 IPC per turn onto one or more AP(transport). The IPC distribution is declared to all players. No AP may “carry” more than 6 IPC. They must be loaded from Eastern or Western US. They can only be offloaded to a red territory held by USSR. The offloaded IPC at a territory are additional IPC income at the territory’s next “Collect Income” phase. Although at that time it may or may not be under USSR control.Massive amount of aids, much of excess US production, were sent to aid USSR. Care had to be taken so these supplies are not intercepted in the sea or land.
Advanced Lend Lease lease payments (use this if Italy if a new player)
The US plaer receives 12 extra IPC per turn that can only be sent to any combination of United Kingdom and/or the Soviet Union to represent lend-lease payments during the war. They can also be saved and sent on a latter turn. However, these must be carried on a transport and sent to sea-zone 4 or 34. Up to 6 points of lend lease can be carried on a single transport. This process can be intercepted be any axis player (who has units in range) and the transport (along with it’s lend lease cargo) can be sunk.
I think you can consider the two very similar rules.
Rewrite.
And make the 2nd rule (for Italy) one sentence. Basically a “besides USSR, you can sent to UK too”. -
OK working on fixes today.
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The lend lease rule is different. In its case the US player gets 12 free IPC to give to UK USSR. The basic game version only allows US/UK to give its own money to Soviets only to defer the balance of not allowing western allied units into the Soviet territories.
It must be stated seperately under optional rules along with Italy because its related to that rule.
Ill add the Uk thing however.
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yeah its important to balance the disallowing of western units on soviet land
so its like…
*US can ship IPC to USSR/UK
*with Italy, the lend-lease payment is extra, not out of US pocketsby the way, did we forget the Germany/Italy lend-lease?
and why only SZ 4 and 34?
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