AARHE: Phase 3: Revised NA's

[theduke]

There is a show on the Military Channel where a panel of historians and military experts rate the best tanks of all time relative to their time periods. It’s called Top Ten or something.

They had 5 factors:

Firepower
Armor Protection
Mobility
Production Ease/Numbers
Fear factors

The rankings were something like:

10. M4 Sherman (US)
9. Merkava (Israel)
8. T54/55 (USSR)
7. Challenger (Great Britain)
6. MkIV Panzer (Germany)
5. Centurion (Great Britain)
4. WWI Tank (Great Britain)
3. Tiger WWII (Germany)
2. M1 Abrams (United States)
1. T34 (USSR)

[Imperious Leader]

Micheal wittman:
during operation “Zitadelle” (Kursk) he destroyed 30 tanks, mainly T-34/76s and KV Is, and 28 anti-tank guns and two batteries of artillery. He especially hated anti-tank guns, which were often camouflaged and difficult to spot. During the period of January 13-14th, Wittmann reported that they had destroyed their 88th enemy tank, and both he and Bobby Woll received the Knight’s Cross for their brave and outstanding tactics and gunnery. On January 16th, a large group of Russian tanks, including T34/85s and KV Is, attacked the Leibstandarte positions, and Wittmann and his crew had destroyed some sixteen additional T34/85s by the end of the day. He left the East Front with 119 destroyed enemy tanks on his name. He received the Ritterkreuz on 14 January 1944, the Oakleaf (Eichenlaub) to his Knight’s Cross on 30 January 1944, and was promoted to the rank of SS-Obersturmführer (1st lieutenant).

he did that with a tiger 1

That list is based on a criteria that would not produce accurate battlefield results. If each tank was placed into some kind of gladiator combat thing. The germans would come out on top 100 out of 100 events. The t-34 shots would never really harm a German tiger 1-2 . if a Sherman vs t-34 duel was possible id say the T-34 would win, but it would be close.

[Imperious Leader]

10. M4 Sherman (US)
9. Merkava (Israel)
8. T54/55 (USSR)
7. Challenger (Great Britain)
6. MkIV Panzer (Germany)
5. Centurion (Great Britain)
4. WWI Tank (Great Britain)
3. Tiger WWII (Germany)
2. M1 Abrams (United States)
1. T34 (USSR)

Note: that list is comparing some crazy things the M1 Abrams should be #1 hands down… how is it not better than a t34?

[theduke]

Let’s take your gladiator combat ring example again, but factor in cost effectiveness to show you why these experts choose T34’s as the best:
Germans get 100 million dollars to spend on tiger tanks.
Russians get 100 million dollars to spend on t34’s.
put them all onto the batlefield at once to fight it out until 1 side has no tanks.
who wins?

i never said t34’s should attack at 4 instead of 3 or anything like that. i said they should be cheaper.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@Imperious:

… If each tank was placed into some kind of gladiator combat thing. The germans would come out on top 100 out of 100 events. The t-34 shots would never really harm a German tiger 1-2 . if a Sherman vs t-34 duel was possible id say the T-34 would win, but it would be close.

Yep, Impy I agree with you here! German machines are and still (BMW, Porsche aso) are the best when it comes to performance! However the seamy side of the outstanding performance is the high cost of production! So theduke is also right! If a T-34 tank should be used in A&A:R I would say it should be a price advantage due to massproductionn A&A:E it is better off to raise defense to 3, due to the IPM effect that is a evident shortcoming for Russia in all A&A games! By the way, another important thing for tanks was radio communication. Russian tanks lacked radiocommunication (mostly), hence were not as effective as their combat capabillity allowed them to be!

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

Massproduction bonus for T 34:

Your tanks basic price is reduced to 4 IPCs for every unit purchased after the first two tank units.

[Imperious Leader]

Ok great but we still beed all the goodies for the other “cheaper unit” NA’s. good start!

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@tekkyy:

What I mean is the contrast. The “Enahanced” varient was not about historic accuracy but a goal of gameplay balance.
Just a useless piece of information. Its not important.

I thought Enhanced Realism Rules were designed for a more historic accuracy! How ever I would like to know if you find the opening fire variant in “Enhanced” balanced? As far as I know it was for Heavy Artillery - a technology?

[Imperious Leader]

He was refering to that horrible varient they play at avalonhill.com its all about balance with those guys… they have no clue about History or reality. They dont even bother to read a book on anything. AARE is only a balance issue not any historical based rules. For example they allow sub to sub combat! and trannys are fodder in all naval battles… that is no problem for these guys… they dont feel it needs to be changed. BTW they dont even have a map done… its just a page of rules nothing more… no nifty player aids? nothing!

[tekkyy]

@B.:

Massproduction bonus for T 34:
Your tanks basic price is reduced to 4 IPCs for every unit purchased after the first two tank units.

To catch up:
Yeah but we got worried about Russia’s small 25 IPC income and we last put it as 2 tanks for 8 IPCs. We were worried about Russia having to spend most of its income on tanks to take advantage of the rule. Russia raised lots of infantry too historically so we made it just a pair-discount-deal for tanks.

@Imperious:

They dont even bother to read a book on anything. AARE is only a balance issue not any historical based rules.

And they won’t listen when we sugguested their varient had too much of a fantasy factor as side effect of their ad-hoc development. Pulling things out of their ***.
Anyway, enough bad mouthing for now.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

I think the opening fire variant for artillery will work out historically for Katyusha Rockets instead of an increased attack on a 3, for the first cycle of combat! Any comment???

5.  Katyusha Rockets
The Soviets were able to supplement the artillery with massed batteries of rocket launchers. The sheer volume of fire more than compensated for individual lack of accuracy.
Your artillery have a first-strike ability at an attack factor of 2. Any casualties are destroyed and removed from play, with no chance to counter-attack. This first-strike ability is for the first cycle of combat only. The artillery unit fire as a regular artillery after the first cycle of combat.

[Imperious Leader]

The katyuskas are great… now we need all the NA’s and some for italy… just slowly work on the entire list post it and together we will have a look/ possible changes.

[tekkyy]

Yep Katyuskas is already in the pre-draft baseline list thingo.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@tekkyy:

Yep Katyuskas is already in the pre-draft baseline list thingo.

Were can I read about this pre-draft basline list thingo???

[tekkyy]

Oh by that I meant what Imperious Leader posted at page 1.

[Imperious Leader]

B. Andersson, Game Master just come up with the entire list of NA with some for Italy as well. Your the master of the NA’s if their ever was one!

remember about 10 each and a point system based on value… use your skills on game theory and get it done.

[tekkyy]

Oooh game theory.
Are we talking about the technical/theoretical term or the everyday term?

[Imperious Leader]

Its his self described method of assigning value and balance to game design.

[B.AnderssonGameMaster]

@tekkyy:

Oooh game theory.
Are we talking about the technical/theoretical term or the everyday term?

The academic term!

[tekkyy]

Ooooh. Thats neat.

But don’t forget our theme  :wink: