Awesome news! I am already looking forward to the release!
Axis and Allies Revised Varient ( historical edition) Phase one proposal (draft)
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So we’ll have to get back to Non-agression treaty later.
@Imperious:- Soviet Winter
Russian player rolls 1 die. If a 1 then Soviet Winter is active. All Soviet ground units defending any red territory defend at +2 than they would otherwise .The roll is performed after the Germans have announced attacks.
With rolling of dice added, we are not keeping it to once per game right?
This is what I think you are modelling…windfall for Russia (rolling dice) and unforeseen difficulty for Germany (hence roll after Germany announced attacks not in Russia’s turn).
But then how many times per game? When should this be declared?
I am thinking limit it to the climate/geography relevant territories and actually let this happen EVERY turn. Radical but I am just thinking out loud.
- Soviet Winter
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Well i was just cleaning up what Duke posted… I dont like the every turn roll either. In fact i want a proper turn order installed in order to be able to to a few things:
- declare presisely when a tech comes into effect ( historical based)
- demonstrate some historical timeframe so we know when we are in the war
- Install a draw or stalemate position …if the war is not decided by a turn then nobody wins.
I would like to only have two such soviet winters 41 and 42, the problem is once its declared the germans wont make any attacks knowing they are gonna lose… so it kinda has to be declared after Germany allready has commited to attacks… can you find a solution? need your help!
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I would like to only have two such soviet winters 41 and 42, the problem is once its declared the germans wont make any attacks knowing they are gonna lose… so it kinda has to be declared after Germany allready has commited to attacks… can you find a solution? need your help!
In real life the Germans knew before they attacked in the harsh winter that they were at a worse position than if they waited to attack until the next year. They knew what time of year it was when they attacked but they decided the gains were worth the risk. This is why I think it’s OK to also have it in the game that the Germans know that they will be at a greater disadvantage before they attack.Â
I don’t think it’s realistic to model Russian Winter with better defensive infantry. I think it’s more realistic to say attacking units can’t attack as well. That’s why I had it so the attack always attacks 1 less than without winter. Think about it, harsh winter doesn’t cause the defeders to fight better than they would in good weather (that’s rediculous IMHO), winter causes the attackers to fight much worse than they would otherwise.
I don’t like rolling a die every turn either but I feel that winter needs to be randomized. Russia shouldn’t be able to choose what time of year it is to best suit there needs like in OOB rules. What if we said that just at the start of the game Russia rolls 1 die and the roll is the turn number that severe winter occurs? I’m fine with saying that it only occurs once between turn 1 and 6, but randomized. This way a die is only rolled once per game instead of once per turn. Much less rolling but it’s still randomized.
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@Imperious:
- declare presisely when a tech comes into effect ( historical based)
To refresh this is what I thought last: purchase dice before combat, roll dice after combat, comes into effect beginning of next turn
@Imperious:
- demonstrate some historical timeframe so we know when we are in the war
Althought we shouldn’t over do it. We setup up the “settings” of the story/game to much historical realism but after that anything goes for the “plot”.
Like the Non-agression treaty. There should be different degrees of penalty rather than hard conditions on when one can break the treaty.
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Much less rolling but it’s still randomized.
Even randomized is controversial.
Random is not historic. Yet if its foreseen its not historic either.
I can’t think of a solution at this point. -
Yet if its foreseen its not historic either.
I still don’t see why you guys think it can’t be foreseen. I know preparing for a battle takes a long time in advance, but still I’m sure these generals have a calender in front of them when they make the invasion plans. :-P They know full well that they are attacking Russia too late in the year. They might not know until the few days leading up to the d-day exactly how harsh the weather is going to be but it’s not like the generals can’t step outside and look around before giving the signal to attack or not. :wink:
The best model for realism IMHO is that the German player knows beforehand that it’s going to be a harsh winter but doesn’t know the specific outcome of the battle (i.e. doesn’t know beforehand how the dice are going to roll). This is how it is in my proposed rule. Why can’t Germany know it’s a harsh winter until after the invasion plans (i.e. the combat move phase)?
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From Wikipedia on Russian Winter: During WWII the only cold winter was in 1941-1942
Since the game starts in early 1942, should we just not have Russian Winter as a NA? Should we just have it only effective on turn 1? I kind of like not having it at all, but if we only have effective for turn 1, then that would solve the problem of it being chosen or randomized… the answer is neither.
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Maybe we could have 1 category called “Early 1942” (hopefully someone can come up with a catchier title). It applies to 2 balancing rules that apply for the 1st turn only. 1 is Russian Winter. The other is “The Second Happy Time” when German subs had their way with US shipping. Here is info from Wikipedia:
The second happy time was a phase in the Second Battle of the Atlantic during which Axis submarines attacked merchant shipping to the east and south-east of the United States. It lasted from January 1942 to about August of that year. German submariners named it the happy time or the golden time as defence measures were weak and disorganised, and the U-boats were able to inflict massive damage with little risk. During the second happy time, Axis submarines sank 609 ships totaling 3.1 million tons for the loss of only 22 U-boats. This was roughly one quarter of all shipping sunk by U-boats during the entire Second World War, and constituted by far the most serious defeat ever suffered by the US Navy.
I think we can come up with rules for each of the two aspects that will balance each other out. What do you think about the category, the category name, the idea of having Russian Winter automatically only apply to turn 1, importance of introducing a model for the 2nd Happy Time, and the rules for 2nd Happy Time?
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Sounds about right.
(Russian Winter fixed in time only, only randomness being the effect.)
We could roll dice 1-3 for -1 attack, 4-6 for -2 attack…Should planes be affected?
And we haven’t progressed further in terms of geographics of Russian Winter.
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Good greif a million new posts!
I still don’t see why you guys think it can’t be foreseen. I know preparing for a battle takes a long time in advance, but still I’m sure these generals have a calender in front of them when they make the invasion plans. tongue They know full well that they are attacking Russia too late in the year. They might not know until the few days leading up to the d-day exactly how harsh the weather is going to be but it’s not like the generals can’t step outside and look around before giving the signal to attack or not. wink
The best model for realism IMHO is that the German player knows beforehand that it’s going to be a harsh winter but doesn’t know the specific outcome of the battle (i.e. doesn’t know beforehand how the dice are going to roll). This is how it is in my proposed rule. Why can’t Germany know it’s a harsh winter until after the invasion plans (i.e. the combat move phase)?
OK the Germans planned Barbarossa for a quick campaign and had no idea how severe the Soviet winter could be, because they didn’t bother to open a history book on Napoleon who learned a great lesson. The winter assault on Moscow (operation Typhon) was totally unrealistic undertaking because the Germans underestimated both their chances in winter fighting and the tested experience the Soviet had in fighting in the snow. To draw an analogy look at football note how the Dolfins play in new england in early January.
But in a real war the same experience in catastrophic to say the least! In reality the Germans should get an attack penalty AND the Soviet should get a defense benefit. But in game terms it does not make much sense to say all German attacks -1, all Soviet defense +1… to simplify the math just have one side get a modifier say -2.
Secondly, the Germans attempted a major attack in DEC 6th 1941 and failed… why then in the GAME are the Germans gonna learn the lesson of history before they even experience it firsthand? So what you propose is to allow the Germans to get the following information: " You should choose not to attack, because we now tell you what happens in history so you don’t make any mistakes"
The idea is to model what happened in history so each player can decide “once hes stuck with the problem how he can pull himself out” If we lay a phantom list of historical realities before the player where he easily sidetrack them and step around them … then we fail as game designers. Our job is to lay the experience upon the play so he can choose the course of action without forknowledge.
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Should planes be affected?
This is gonna depend on what list of air operations we install ( air missions) I dont think air missions should be effected or we would have to zone the map into different sections to represent or “model” weather conditions for each sector.
The weather rules shouls only reflect the Soviet experiance of those winters 41 and 42 . Since the game starts in say april 1942 we only have to cover one such event. Best done as a surprise to the germans in some way.
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I’m thinking the 6 optional rule sections should be:
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Technology
a) Radar
b) Rockets
c) Super Subs
d) Long-Range Aircraft
e) Jet Fighters
f) Heavy Bombers -
National Units
a) Russian T-34’s
b) German VIIC Class U-boats
c) British Destroyers (need to change- specific DD?)
d) Japanese Kamikazes
e) US Fast Carriers (change- specifics?) -
Early 1942
a) Russian Winter
b) Second Happy Time -
Foreign Aid
a) Lend-Lease
b) Italian Forces -
Non-Aggressive States (maybe change?)
a) Soviet-Japanese Non-Aggression Treay
b) European Neutral Aid -
Alliances Among the Allies
a) Russian Distrust (need to change)
b) Joint Strike (maybe change)
Opinions? Chnage any names?
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I still don’t see why Russians get a defensive bonus! Do Russians actually fight better in the snow than they do in perfect conditions? I find that hard to believe if they do. They don’t fight better, its just that the harsh weather doesn’t affect them anywhere near it how it affects other armies. One could argue that Russians defend just as well, no matter how cold it is. Why then would the model have them fight better? Can they aim the gun better in the cold and howling wind? Can they run faster through the snow then they can on normal terrain? I don’t get why they should defend at a 3.
I’ll take Imp’s football analogy… The patriots don’t play better in the snow than they do in perfect weather. They just don’t play that much worse. Most southern teams, like the Dolphins, play much worse in the snow.
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Technology
a) Radar
b) Rockets
c) Super Subs
d) Long-Range Aircraft
e) Jet Fighters
f) Heavy Bombers
G) jet bombers?
I) A-bomb?
K) long range subs? -
National Units ( i think a choice from a list with an equal balance of axis and allied hardware)
a) Russian T-34’s
b) German XX1 Class U-boats (walter uboats)
c) British Destroyers (need to change- specific DD?)
d) Japanese Kamikazes
e) US Fast Carriers (change- specifics?)
f) Tiger Tanks? -
Early 1942
a) Russian Winter
b) Second Happy Time
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Foreign Aid
a) Lend-Lease
b) Italian Forces -
Non-Aggressive States (maybe change?)
a) Soviet-Japanese Non- Aggression Pact
The Soviet Union and Japan are not at war when the game begins. Soviet Union cannot attack Japan until Germany and Italy are defeated, while Japan cannot attack until Greater China,India and Austrailia are defeated.
b) European Neutral Aid
Neutral Aid
Germany can receive up to 5 IPC at the beginning of his turn from Switzerland (1) , Spain (2) ,and Sweden (2). In the case of Sweden, aid commences and lasts as long as at least one axis controlled/allied nation borders these nations. If at any time the allies capture Norway, and Finland aid from Sweden is ended.6)Political Affliations:
A) Stalinist Xenophobia
U.K. and U.S. units may not occupy, move through, or fly over territory controlled by the U.S.S.R… Also, U.K. and U.S. naval units may however share the same sea zone with U.S.S.R. naval units.b) Joint Strike: Once per game UK and USA get to perform their movement and combat together in one specific territory. This is performed during either turn, but the same territory cannot be attacked by the second allied nation on their own turn.
Opinions? Chnage any names?
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I still don’t see why Russians get a defensive bonus! Do Russians actually fight better in the snow than they do in perfect conditions?
Yes they represent the Soviet Siberian army with specialists in winter fighting! they know how to dig in an defend Moscow. They were not as good during clear conditions when the German tactics of blitzkreig could overwhelm the “shock armies” Shock troops were Stalins best soldiers overall.
I find that hard to believe if they do. They don’t fight better, its just that the harsh weather doesn’t affect them anywhere near it how it affects other armies. One could argue that Russians defend just as well, no matter how cold it is. Why then would the model have them fight better? Can they aim the gun better in the cold and howling wind? Can they run faster through the snow then they can on normal terrain? I don’t get why they should defend at a 3.
They have the proper equipment to sustain them in this type of enviroment. They knew ahead of time what happens in snow to tanks and other equipment and knew how to make the best of it… by experience… Germans had no such experience in Soviet Shock army tactics. They dont shoot better they emply better tactics to make the best use of the winter. The germans didn’t understand this.Those abilities to fight in the winter should be availible to the soviets as a defensive modifier to simulate the better employment of these resources.
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I say we should just scrap the whole section on “early 1942” optional rules. We aren’t going to agree on it, I’m done making my case for it, it’s not that important since it only effects at most turn 1, and I think we can come up with a cooler optional rule than that anyway.
Agree? If so, other ideas for an optional section?
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G) jet bombers?
I) A-bomb?
K) long range subs?********this is only phase 1, remember? The list for every tech we can think of is coming up in phase 2, right?
National Units ( i think a choice from a list with an equal balance of axis and allied hardware)
*********the 2 units for the axis are just as good as the 3 allied units = balanced game. if we add more units, then the balance is thrown off.
The Soviet Union and Japan are not at war when the game begins. Soviet Union cannot attack Japan until Germany and Italy are defeated, while Japan cannot attack until Greater China,India and Austrailia are defeated.
********What about the idea of attacking whenever you have 3 times the IPC value of the defender in terms of ground troops? Russia should have to be on there guard even in the early part of the game.Neutral Aid
Germany can receive up to 5 IPC at the beginning of his turn from Switzerland (1) , Spain (2) ,and Sweden (2). In the case of Sweden, aid commences and lasts as long as at least one axis controlled/allied nation borders these nations. If at any time the allies capture Norway, and Finland aid from Sweden is ended.
********* I think Spain and Sweden should give only 1 too. Reasoning: How many IPCs would they be worth anyway? Not more than 3 for Sweden. Sweden didn’t give more than 1/3rd of their economy to Germany. I think we should just leave it at 1 for simplicity. Also, this rule needs to balance Soviet/Japanese non-aggression. Germany collecting 5 IPCs is not balanced… favors the axis too much. Opinions?A) Stalinist Xenophobia
U.K. and U.S. units may not occupy, move through, or fly over territory controlled by the U.S.S.R… Also, U.K. and U.S. naval units may however share the same sea zone with U.S.S.R. naval units.
*****This name is much better. -
German XX1 Class U-boats (walter uboats)
Wasn’t the VIIC the most built sub in the war? If Germany is building a lot of these subs, including in early 1942, should it be the XXI?
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Here’s an idea for the 6th section:
Unit Transportation (need a better name)
a) Railway (name?): 1 transport worth of ground troops (the number that can fit into 1 transport) may be moved in the non-combat phase from your capital to any other territory that is of your color and under your control and contiguously connected to your capital. (I know this doesn’t fit perfect into historical railways for both Russia and Germany, but it’s close enough for the simplicity it allows.
b) Air transports (name?): During every combat move phase, each nation may move 1 infantry from either their capital or major VC to a hostile territory no more than 2 spaces away. Combat is conducted as usual. -
Ok a few ideas:
Strategic Redeployment (SR)
Rail movement: Each nation can move a number of units in the non-combat phase from your capital to any other territory that is of your color and under your control and contiguously connected to your capital.Here is historical based capacity: from this we can make the scale of units smaller.
Strategic Redeployment
Each nation has a capacity to move units by rail/sea transport following the Non- Combat phase of the turn. During strategic redeployment/base changes no unit can be intercepted. During non combat you cannot move pieces into or out of territories/sea zones that contain enemy units. That is reserved for combat movement only. Land units specifically may redeploy from any contiguous territories controlled by the player and his Allies. Neutral nations cannot be used to “trace†connected land territories (e.g. Turkey). Redeployment to land territories separated across one sea zone is possible but each such transfer costs one SR points for each unit and is limited to the total number of transports you have in sea zones between the territories. The United States can SR units across more than one sea zone but only between the Eastern United States and United Kingdom and is also limited to the number of transports available in the North Atlantic. Units that are sent in excess of the transports can still be sent but cost two points each.Example 1: Germany wants to send some units to Africa. Each transport in the Med. can send one SR across their sea into say Libya on a one to one basis (1/1).
Example 2: German transports in the Atlantic cannot send a SR into a land territory in Africa that does not have a common sea space between Western Europe and the western coast of Africa. Note: US deployment into England during the SR phase does require any transports to be positioned in the North Atlantic ocean on the 1/1 basis as described in the example with Germany.
The capacity for each nation is as follows:
Germany 9
Italy 5
U.S.S.R 6
United Kingdom 6
France 5
Japan 7
U.S.A. 10
China 4Note: Non-Combat movement is only allowed through friendly territories, but includes just-captured territories.
German XX1 Class U-boats (walter uboats)
Wasn’t the VIIC the most built sub in the war? If Germany is building a lot of these subs, including in early 1942, should it be the XXI?
Ok as far as a major improvement of submarine capabilities (prior to nuclear subs) the walter Uboat was by far the best sub traveling at almost the same speed as destroyers at 16 knots compared to 7-8 knots underwater. This U-boat is developed as early as 1943 would have destroyed england. It wasnt introduced till Jan 1945.
G) jet bombers?
I) A-bomb?
K) long range subs?********this is only phase 1, remember? The list for every tech we can think of is coming up in phase 2, right?
I though we are in phase two?
Neutral Aid
Germany can receive up to 5 IPC at the beginning of his turn from Switzerland (1) , Spain (2) ,and Sweden (2). In the case of Sweden, aid commences and lasts as long as at least one axis controlled/allied nation borders these nations. If at any time the allies capture Norway, and Finland aid from Sweden is ended.********* I think Spain and Sweden should give only 1 too. Reasoning: How many IPCs would they be worth anyway? Not more than 3 for Sweden. Sweden didn’t give more than 1/3rd of their economy to Germany. I think we should just leave it at 1 for simplicity. Also, this rule needs to balance Soviet/Japanese non-aggression. Germany collecting 5 IPCs is not balanced… favors the axis too much. Opinions?
+++++it represents the ratio of what was sent in terms of value to germany. And it makes the allies consider going after the swedish income to deny Germany. My idea was to basically under phase two give the allies 15 IPC for lend lease aid instead of 10 ipc, because some of this aid has goto UK, while Italy gets 10 IPC to offset the income, now if Germany gets 5 IPC in aid the allies should get another 5 in aid to offset. Now germany can go after 15 IPC while the allies can go after 5 IP in aid.
Now on the issue of Soviet winter… please dont get discouraged… its a small thing to make up something that satisfies the problem of winter warfare.
Soviet Weather: In the second half of 1942 all land combat by the Axis players in the Russian theater is subject to a -1 attack modifier (never lower than one) during the combat phase.
ok is this better? we need something and you want only the germans to get the modifier… is this what you want? just modify my post to fit what you feel is best.
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