13L G40 seththenewb(allies+10) vs MagicQ(axis)

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

@MagicQ:

In both case, I could still roll the sub’s dice first. And there is 66% chance (nil hit or 2 hits) I could skip asking you. Thus, save time for both of us.

Or you could just roll on the forum and avoid the whole hot mess in the first place.  :-P

@Boldfresh:

i would agree that if the subs roll first, it does not really inconvenience seth, he is not forced to declare his casualties until the rest of the attack dice are rolled.  seth, the REAL problem with subs occurs when there are defending subs.  still, Magic, seth did ask you to roll the dice on the forum, which you should have respected.
cheers

I believe in using forum dice when we have to. In this case, not necessary apparently. Don’t you agree?

[MagicQ]

I believe in using forum dice when we have to. In this case, not necessary apparently. Don’t you agree?

[seth4god]

@MagicQ:

@seththenewb:

@Boldfresh:

i don’t see the issue then. �seth can you elaborate?

Sub combat on triplea is handled illegally. I stated so after the first round and asked him to continue the battle on the forum. I also warned him that I wouldn’t feel compelled to accept the combat results if he rolled further sub combat via triplea.

I decided to accept the first round since I didn’t know what he knew about the triplea issue and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also made sure he knew what the issue was so he’d know in the future.

It doesn’t matter what the results are if you do something illegally. Note that I hadn’t seen the combat result prior to issuing my warning about not accepting the dice rolls. This isn’t something that I started protesting AFTER the fact, this is something that I made him aware of BEFORE he continued the roll. Not my fault he ignored both the rules and my explicitly stated wish for him to roll the sub combat on the forum.

The issue you pointed out is absolutely true. But this issue doesn’t affect our game’s outcome even a tiny bit. �You probably wanna see dice results(for both subs and the rest of the attacking force) all together. Preferably in � one same battle window screen, right? But the fact is that this software is made this way –- subs roll first then the rest. So we have to live with it. The dice results come out separately in 2 screen. But you still see both before you need to do anything, don’t you? I would not be able to take advantage of this. �Please don’t think I am ignoring you or cheating.

No we don’t have to live with it! That’s the whole point of rolling things out in the forum. And maybe that particular roll precluded me having any further impact in that battle via OOL. But you had NO way of knowing so prior to you actually rolling. You proceeded to roll things out despite knowing that triplea did things illegally and you still don’t seem to get that triplea rolling the subs incorrectly is wrong or a big deal. And you continued despite me telling you to roll on the forum. Those rolls happened AFTER I asked you not to roll on triplea and gave you the link to the document that clearly states what the issue is.

Just because the rolls in this instance wiped me out doesn’t mean your decision to ignore both myself and the rules is right by any means.

Gamer,

I know certain people on this site don’t like mixing sport analogies into this game. But I’m going to use one anyway to see if I can help you understand where I’m coming from. Say there’s holding on a defensive end after the ball carrier is already past the defender. The ball carrier proceeds to race 40 yards and into the endzone for the TD. Now even though that DE had absolutely no play on the running back, the ref sees the hold and correctly throws the flag. The referees confer with each other and call the play back to the spot of the foul and tack on 10 yards. They’re not going to say well gee it’s only fair that we spot the ball on the 1 yard line since the holding didn’t really affect the play. If something’s illegal, the resulting play or outcome shouldn’t be impacted by anything else.

I’m not asking that MagicQ be penalized as it’s clear he’s not trying to cheat or take advantage of something. He just didn’t grasp the impact that attacking subs rolling first has on the game. I’m not asking for anything but for Rd2 to be rerolled. He’ll still probably wipe me out. But I understand that’s it’s not guaranteed he would, so I’m willing to offer him a LL reroll on the battle from Rd2 if I somehow win. That way he’s protected from getting diced in reverse. I’d be satisfied with this.

[seth4god]

@MagicQ:

I believe in using forum dice when we have to. In this case, not necessary apparently. Don’t you agree?

Nope, because you had no way to KNOW what you would have rolled or what I would have rolled PRIOR to actually rolling things. You admitted to as much earlier.
@MagicQ:

In both case, I could still roll the sub’s dice first. And there is 66% chance (nil hit or 2 hits) I could skip asking you. Thus, save time for both of us.

Although I’m not sure about your math there.  :wink:

[seth4god]

Gamer,

So my counter-proposal. Rd1 stands as I already indicated I’d live with it and I still don’t have an issue with it. Rd2 reroll on the forum and as many as needed to resolve the battle. If by chance I somehow win, we will re-reroll sz92 using LL to help protect MagicQ from a reverse dicing. MagicQ has full rights to COMPLETELY change his ncm and placements after the battle has been resolved.

I will live with your earlier compromise if you are still 100% on it after reading my posts, thinking about it more, and reading my counter proposal. No, I’m not happy with your ruling and I can’t promise that I won’t try to find a witch doctor with a voodoo doll. Throwing a unit of MagicQ’s must die smacks of pity for the dicing rather more so than ‘fairness’. But part of playing with league games means agreeing to live with official rulings. The only question I’d have at that point would be which unit dies. Your decision, his decision, or my decision? I threw out my decision as tongue in cheek, so take it in the spirit it was offered.  :wink:

And no, I don’t have an issue with you MagicQ. Just try to respect your opponent’s wishes in the future.  :-D

[MagicQ]

Hi Seth

The thing is there is nothing wrong with dice or sequence in this battle or what so ever. So I think I have the right to ask to continue without changing anything.

[MagicQ]

You hope to roll in the forum. And I hope to play triplea dice unless I have to use forum dice. In this case, no forum dice is needed. Don’t you get it?

And LL re-roll is different. I am not sure about it. Let me think about it.

[MagicQ]

Let’s take a break. It is worth discussing. We will figure it out.

[seth4god]

@MagicQ:

You hope to roll in the forum. And I hope to play triplea dice unless I have to use forum dice. In this case, no forum dice is needed. Don’t you get it?

And LL re-roll is different. I am not sure about it. Let me think about it.

Why do I get the feeling that I’m talking to a wall here.  :lol:

What instance(s) would you roll on the forum?

Forget the rolls. Forget what happened. Forget the battle completely. Just wipe it from your memory for a little bit. It didn’t happen. It’s still Italy’s combat move and you’re now set to begin combat. Pretend Gamer ruling was to reroll the WHOLE battle from Rd1. Knowing now that subs illegally fire first despite my subs, do you get why it might be best to roll on the forum so you can roll the subs all together with the rest of your units? You don’t know what your subs will roll and you don’t know what your units will roll. I don’t know what will be rolled.

Are you prepared and willing to roll sub involved combat (we still both have massive fleets in the Pac with subs and destroyers) on the forum? Completely on the forum, no triplea. Maybe you don’t see the need to, but you OK with respecting my wishes as far as sub combat goes?

[seth4god]

Gamer, if you do stick to your decision. Are we talking about MagicQ losing the fighter that had to die because it’s landing spot was sunk in the battle or an additional unit?

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

This is my ruling.  I do not think it is fair to re-roll from round 2, however I think Seth deserves some compensation for you improperly rolling the battle on TripleA after he did everything he could to explain to you why that was inappropriate and technically illegal.  I believe that Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle to compensate.

When I said Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle, I meant the Italian player (MagicQ) would choose.  I was not aware that one of the units was going to splash anyway.  So I meant 1 more unit beyond that.

I stand by my ruling and I don’t see any bad precedent being set.  I suppose I need to explain it now.
I’m not a football rules expert, but I know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play when a touchdown is scored.  Sometimes they assess it on the ensuing kickoff.  AFAIK they do not call back 40 yard runs when there was an offensive penalty that had no effect on the play (runner was past the spot of the hold).  I may be wrong about holding, per se, like I said I’m not a football expert but I do know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play.  They don’t always bring the play back as if it never happened.

Anyway, I don’t think the battle should be re-rolled from round 2.  I also don’t think MagicQ should go scot free.  A slap on the wrist is more than nothing.
My TripleA issues document is not law.  It is a guide to players on how to follow the rule book when playing Triple A.
An over-arching principle of playing by forum is that whenever reasonably possible, you should stick with the dice that were thrown.  You should not be able to get a much better result in Z92 based on a rules technicality that in fact in hindsight made absolutely no difference.  Yes I know you’re offering LL re-roll, but that still greatly favors you.  You know that a LL result would be much better than the one you got.  I understand that you are very competitive.  That’s fine, but it has clouded your judgement.  I have no dog in this race, so it is easier for me to be objective.  You guys need a compromise that you can both agree is reasonable, and so I stand by my ruling which I really think is appropriate.

MagicQ must take off 1 additional unit that he wasn’t already going to lose.  So if he had a fighter that was going to splash anyway, then I think he should take one more off to pay for ignoring your wishes.

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:

to pay for ignoring your wishes.

and the rules, which he (in his defense) did not clearly understand.

[gamerman01]

@Gamerman01:
and the rules, which he (in his defense) did not clearly understand.
What I mean is that I don’t think he realized why your request to roll on the forum had any merit, so he was not being belligerent by continuing.  Whether he asks you for a casualty choice at the right time had absolutely no effect in this situation, and that is the essence of MagicQ’s position, and I agree with it.  Now quit trying to get undiced, take off an extra unit and call it a compromise, and game on!  :-)

[boldfresh]

Yeah u got more important things to do, like G1!  I appreciate how competitve u r too seth, which is why its gonna be fun to pin my first loss on you (aside from xdap of course).

[MagicQ]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 8

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            1 cruiser moved from 97 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
                  Italians take Tobruk from British
            1 carrier moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            3 destroyers and 4 submarines moved from 97 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
                  Italians take 97 Sea Zone from British
            2 fighters moved from 97 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 cruiser moved from 94 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 93 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Western Germany to 92 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Caucasus to 92 Sea Zone

Combat - Italians
            British scrambles 3 units out of Gibraltar to defend against the attack in 92 Sea Zone
            Battle in 92 Sea Zone
                Italians attack with 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 3 fighters, 4 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber
                French defend with 1 infantry; British defend with 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 5 fighters and 3 transports
                Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British
                Italians win with 1 bomber, 1 cruiser, 2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 72
                Casualties for French: 1 infantry
                Casualties for British: 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 5 fighters and 3 transports
                Casualties for Italians: 1 carrier, 3 destroyers, 1 fighter and 4 submarines

Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 fighter could not land in 92 Sea Zone and was removed
            1 bomber moved from 92 Sea Zone to Southern France
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 92 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 92 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Caucasus to Northwest Persia
            1 artillery moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Southern France
            1 infantry moved from France to Southern France
            1 infantry moved from France to Northern Italy
            1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern Italy

Place Units - Italians
            1 carrier and 1 destroyer placed in 93 Sea Zone
            1 infantry placed in Northern Italy

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs total
            Objective Italians 4 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Italians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 25 PUs
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 30 PUs
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from 92 Sea Zone: 1 cruiser
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

[MagicQ]

@Gamerman01:

@Gamerman01:

This is my ruling.  I do not think it is fair to re-roll from round 2, however I think Seth deserves some compensation for you improperly rolling the battle on TripleA after he did everything he could to explain to you why that was inappropriate and technically illegal.  I believe that Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle to compensate.

When I said Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle, I meant the Italian player (MagicQ) would choose.  I was not aware that one of the units was going to splash anyway.  So I meant 1 more unit beyond that.

I stand by my ruling and I don’t see any bad precedent being set.  I suppose I need to explain it now.
I’m not a football rules expert, but I know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play when a touchdown is scored.  Sometimes they assess it on the ensuing kickoff.  AFAIK they do not call back 40 yard runs when there was an offensive penalty that had no effect on the play (runner was past the spot of the hold).  I may be wrong about holding, per se, like I said I’m not a football expert but I do know there are penalties that are assessed on the next play.  They don’t always bring the play back as if it never happened.

Anyway, I don’t think the battle should be re-rolled from round 2.  I also don’t think MagicQ should go scot free.  A slap on the wrist is more than nothing.
My TripleA issues document is not law.  It is a guide to players on how to follow the rule book when playing Triple A.
An over-arching principle of playing by forum is that whenever reasonably possible, you should stick with the dice that were thrown.  You should not be able to get a much better result in Z92 based on a rules technicality that in fact in hindsight made absolutely no difference.  Yes I know you’re offering LL re-roll, but that still greatly favors you.  You know that a LL result would be much better than the one you got.  I understand that you are very competitive.  That’s fine, but it has clouded your judgement.  I have no dog in this race, so it is easier for me to be objective.  You guys need a compromise that you can both agree is reasonable, and so I stand by my ruling which I really think is appropriate.

MagicQ must take off 1 additional unit that he wasn’t already going to lose.  So if he had a fighter that was going to splash anyway, then I think he should take one more off to pay for ignoring your wishes.

Respect that! I removed 1 unit. Let’s rock and roll.

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

@MagicQ:

You hope to roll in the forum. And I hope to play triplea dice unless I have to use forum dice. In this case, no forum dice is needed. Don’t you get it?

And LL re-roll is different. I am not sure about it. Let me think about it.

Why do I get the feeling that I’m talking to a wall here.  :lol:

What instance(s) would you roll on the forum?

Forget the rolls. Forget what happened. Forget the battle completely. Just wipe it from your memory for a little bit. It didn’t happen. It’s still Italy’s combat move and you’re now set to begin combat. Pretend Gamer ruling was to reroll the WHOLE battle from Rd1. Knowing now that subs illegally fire first despite my subs, do you get why it might be best to roll on the forum so you can roll the subs all together with the rest of your units? You don’t know what your subs will roll and you don’t know what your units will roll. I don’t know what will be rolled.

Are you prepared and willing to roll sub involved combat (we still both have massive fleets in the Pac with subs and destroyers) on the forum? Completely on the forum, no triplea. Maybe you don’t see the need to, but you OK with respecting my wishes as far as sub combat goes?

I don’t know what the subs will roll. True. But I do know what is the right time to stop and ask for OOL. That’s enough from my point of view. I am not totally agree that you say the dice here could be illegal. Still, that’s debatable.

[MagicQ]

Completely on the forum, no triplea.

All battle involving subs? That will just waste a lot of time. I still stick to my original idea–- roll in the forum only when we have to.

[MagicQ]

Finish the game as much as we can within the software. That’s my point.

[gamerman01]

That’s fine, until the software makes you go against the rule book.  Seth’s a stickler for the rules, so it would be a good idea to roll on forum dice in certain sub situations (enemy destroyer present, etc etc)

It really doesn’t take much effort to do that.  What I do, is roll the forum dice and conduct the battle on the forum, and then edit remove the destroyed units for each side before clicking to roll the battle in Triple A.  This way, you can keep Triple A from rolling any dice which prevents accusations that you rolled in both places and chose the ones beneficial to you.

Anyway, just saying, MagicQ if you refuse to roll any forum dice the remainder of this game, you may have more issues with Seth, and he is technically correct.