13L G40 seththenewb(allies+10) vs MagicQ(axis)

[gamerman01]

And in the future, you should roll sub battles out on the forum when enemy destroyers are present, unless there is only 1 type of boat that could be hit by the subs.
Also in the future, I respectfully advise you to respond to your opponent’s concerns before continuing the game and rolling more dice.  Thank you.

[MagicQ]

Hi Seth

If you believe any dice that involved with subs could be invalid, then the whole game could be invalid since the very beginning of round 1 Germany. That would be ridiculous.

but I think you are not happy about the RAF’s roll of the second battle round. And I do feel sorry for the bad  dice you get.

[MagicQ]

@Gamerman01:

@MagicQ:

If I hit 1, there is no way I would continue rolling dice without asking Seth.

Here, Subs hit 2 and the software automatically take 2 ships off and I don’t even think I should ask Seth for anything.

I know, Magic!
I guess I have to say it a 3rd time, more slowly.

If you had scored 1 hit, you would have asked Seth, just like you said.

And Seth would have to decide Destroyer or Battleship, but he should not have to make any decisions according to the rulebook, until you roll the rest of your attacking force and see how many hits you got in total.  He is having to make a decision without all the relevant information that he is entitled to have at that point.
If you were playing table top face to face, you would not ask him for a casualty choice after the 2 subs roll.  You would roll the 2 subs, keep track of how many sub hits there will be, and roll the rest of your units.  Then Seth would choose his casualties, including the appropriate number of boats.
I know you got 2 hits so it didn’t matter, but that is irrelevant because you went ahead and rolled in Triple A when there was a very real likelihood that you would score 1 hit and then you would have a problem.

Surely you understand what we’re saying now?
You realize I wouldn’t be unreasonable to demand that you go back and re-roll from round 2 and take away all your great dice, but I am settling on a compromise that I think is fair, that Italy should take off 1 unit of your choice from Z92 survivors.

OK then. I will accept it.

[gamerman01]

Seth?  Do you agree to the compromise also?

[gamerman01]

Magic, I hope you won’t think any less of Seth because of this disagreement.  He has a good point, and you can learn from this.  Also, if you haven’t already, you really should familiarize yourself with the Triple A issues document he gave you a link to, to prevent future misunderstandings with the people you play with in the future.  It could also help you out in your game play by helping you to avoid being taken advantage of.

Happy gaming!

[MagicQ]

@Gamerman01:

Magic, I hope you won’t think any less of Seth because of this disagreement.  He has a good point, and you can learn from this.  Also, if you haven’t already, you really should familiarize yourself with the Triple A issues document he gave you a link to, to prevent future misunderstandings with the people you play with in the future.  It could also help you out in your game play by helping you to avoid being taken advantage of.

Happy gaming!

Nope. Seth is a great person. He helped me a lot for this one my 1st league game.

[MagicQ]

@MagicQ:

@Gamerman01:

Magic, I hope you won’t think any less of Seth because of this disagreement.  He has a good point, and you can learn from this.  Also, if you haven’t already, you really should familiarize yourself with the Triple A issues document he gave you a link to, to prevent future misunderstandings with the people you play with in the future.  It could also help you out in your game play by helping you to avoid being taken advantage of.

Happy gaming!

Nope. Seth is a great person. He helped me a lot for this one my 1st league game.

I won’t think any less of Seth because of this disagreement for sure. This is not player’s problem. I do hope no-one would take advantage of  the flaw of the software.

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

@Gamerman01:

Magic, you had no way of knowing that you would score 2 hits with the subs when you decided to roll.

Magic, did you see Seth’s post requesting that you roll the rest on the forum?  If so, why did you not respond?

He did indeed see that post because that’s the same post that I gave OOL in.

I did see all you post and stuff. And I really believe there is no need to ask for anything before the attacker roll for that 2 sub.

Let’s put it this way,

1. If they hit none or 2, I can continue without posting or asking for ool or asking if you wanna know the rest of the Italian fleets’s dice cos that makes no difference whether I ask or not.

2. If they hit 1, then I have to ask for ool and you may wanna see how many the rest of Italian fleets hit.

In both case, I could still roll the sub’s dice first. And there is 66% chance (nil hit or 2 hits) I could skip asking you. Thus, save time for both of us.

[MagicQ]

I think the problem will occur only when defender needs to choose casualties.

[boldfresh]

i would agree that if the subs roll first, it does not really inconvenience seth, he is not forced to declare his casualties until the rest of the attack dice are rolled.  seth, the REAL problem with subs occurs when there are defending subs.  still, Magic, seth did ask you to roll the dice on the forum, which you should have respected.

cheers

[seth4god]

@Gamerman01:

This is my ruling. �I do not think it is fair to re-roll from round 2, however I think Seth deserves some compensation for you improperly rolling the battle on TripleA after he did everything he could to explain to you why that was inappropriate and technically illegal. �I believe that Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle to compensate.

Is that satisfactory to both of you?

Gamer, I just want to ask you a couple of questions. Is this the type of precedent that you want to set moving forward? That an opponent can ignore rules on combat and then get a little slap on the wrist. How does that discourage someone from rolling sub combat in this manner in the future, especially when their opponent stated the rules clearly moments prior to the dice being rolled. If something is done illegally, then that result is null and void. Had MagicQ actually rolled the combat correctly than this wouldn’t have been an issue. It doesn’t matter that he wiped me out or would have anyway, the roll was illegal. He still will probably wipe me out, and that’s fine.

Does your triplea problems document NOT carry any weight in how to resolve triplea’s bugs and issues? Should we consider it more like suggestions than and not something that should be religiously followed. I know you’ve stated in the past that sub combats should be rolled on the forum. But I guess it’s not a requirement so much as advice?

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

@Boldfresh:

i don’t see the issue then. �seth can you elaborate?

Sub combat on triplea is handled illegally. I stated so after the first round and asked him to continue the battle on the forum. I also warned him that I wouldn’t feel compelled to accept the combat results if he rolled further sub combat via triplea.

I decided to accept the first round since I didn’t know what he knew about the triplea issue and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also made sure he knew what the issue was so he’d know in the future.

It doesn’t matter what the results are if you do something illegally. Note that I hadn’t seen the combat result prior to issuing my warning about not accepting the dice rolls. This isn’t something that I started protesting AFTER the fact, this is something that I made him aware of BEFORE he continued the roll. Not my fault he ignored both the rules and my explicitly stated wish for him to roll the sub combat on the forum.

The issue you pointed out is absolutely true. But this issue doesn’t affect our game’s outcome even a tiny bit.  You probably wanna see dice results(for both subs and the rest of the attacking force) all together. Preferably in   one same battle window screen, right? But the fact is that this software is made this way –- subs roll first then the rest. So we have to live with it. The dice results come out separately in 2 screen. But you still see both before you need to do anything, don’t you? I would not be able to take advantage of this.  Please don’t think I am ignoring you or cheating.

[seth4god]

@MagicQ:

In both case, I could still roll the sub’s dice first. And there is 66% chance (nil hit or 2 hits) I could skip asking you. Thus, save time for both of us.

Or you could just roll on the forum and avoid the whole hot mess in the first place.  :-P

@Boldfresh:

i would agree that if the subs roll first, it does not really inconvenience seth, he is not forced to declare his casualties until the rest of the attack dice are rolled.  seth, the REAL problem with subs occurs when there are defending subs.  still, Magic, seth did ask you to roll the dice on the forum, which you should have respected.
cheers

Most of the time it might not affect things or have a small impact, but the rules exist and we can’t pick and choose which to follow. Most of the time the combat order doesn’t matter and I used to do combat in the order I felt like. Now I know that you have to do SBR, amphibious assualts + naval battle to clear if needed, and then the rest of the combat. A lot of the time following that order vs another order won’t have too much of an impact on the game, but that doesn’t mean I’m free to ignore it.

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

@Gamerman01:

This is my ruling. �I do not think it is fair to re-roll from round 2, however I think Seth deserves some compensation for you improperly rolling the battle on TripleA after he did everything he could to explain to you why that was inappropriate and technically illegal. �I believe that Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle to compensate.

Is that satisfactory to both of you?

Gamer, I just want to ask you a couple of questions. Is this the type of precedent that you want to set moving forward? That an opponent can ignore rules on combat and then get a little slap on the wrist. How does that discourage someone from rolling sub combat in this manner in the future, especially when their opponent stated the rules clearly moments prior to the dice being rolled. If something is done illegally, then that result is null and void. Had MagicQ actually rolled the combat correctly than this wouldn’t have been an issue. It doesn’t matter that he wiped me out or would have anyway, the roll was illegal. He still will probably wipe me out, and that’s fine.

Does your triplea problems document NOT carry any weight in how to resolve triplea’s bugs and issues? Should we consider it more like suggestions than and not something that should be religiously followed. I know you’ve stated in the past that sub combats should be rolled on the forum. But I guess it’s not a requirement so much as advice?

To solve this problem in the future, I would suggest Gamer that all player should follow a proper battle sequence in the league game when using Triplea.

My advice

1. attacker roll
2. pass the saved file to defender if any ool is needed
3. let defender decide whether he wants to see the rest of the dice from attacker force first or choose casualties directly
4. if defender wanna see other results first, attacker should roll within the forum.  if defender doesn’t say anything then the game continue as usual. and there is no need to roll extra without the software

[MagicQ]

@MagicQ:

@seththenewb:

@Gamerman01:

This is my ruling. �I do not think it is fair to re-roll from round 2, however I think Seth deserves some compensation for you improperly rolling the battle on TripleA after he did everything he could to explain to you why that was inappropriate and technically illegal. �I believe that Italy should take off 1 unit that survived the Z92 battle to compensate.

Is that satisfactory to both of you?

Gamer, I just want to ask you a couple of questions. Is this the type of precedent that you want to set moving forward? That an opponent can ignore rules on combat and then get a little slap on the wrist. How does that discourage someone from rolling sub combat in this manner in the future, especially when their opponent stated the rules clearly moments prior to the dice being rolled. If something is done illegally, then that result is null and void. Had MagicQ actually rolled the combat correctly than this wouldn’t have been an issue. It doesn’t matter that he wiped me out or would have anyway, the roll was illegal. He still will probably wipe me out, and that’s fine.

Does your triplea problems document NOT carry any weight in how to resolve triplea’s bugs and issues? Should we consider it more like suggestions than and not something that should be religiously followed. I know you’ve stated in the past that sub combats should be rolled on the forum. But I guess it’s not a requirement so much as advice?

To solve this problem in the future, I would suggest Gamer that all player should follow a proper battle sequence in the league game when using Triplea.

My advice

1. attacker roll
2. pass the saved file to defender if any ool is needed
3. let defender decide whether he wants to see the rest of the dice from attacker force first or choose casualties directly
4. if defender wanna see other results first, attacker should roll within the forum.  if defender doesn’t say anything then the game continue as usual. and there is no need to roll extra without the software

That only applies when there is sub present of course.

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

@MagicQ:

In both case, I could still roll the sub’s dice first. And there is 66% chance (nil hit or 2 hits) I could skip asking you. Thus, save time for both of us.

Or you could just roll on the forum and avoid the whole hot mess in the first place.  :-P

@Boldfresh:

i would agree that if the subs roll first, it does not really inconvenience seth, he is not forced to declare his casualties until the rest of the attack dice are rolled.  seth, the REAL problem with subs occurs when there are defending subs.  still, Magic, seth did ask you to roll the dice on the forum, which you should have respected.
cheers

I believe in using forum dice when we have to. In this case, not necessary apparently. Don’t you agree?

[MagicQ]

I believe in using forum dice when we have to. In this case, not necessary apparently. Don’t you agree?

[seth4god]

@MagicQ:

@seththenewb:

@Boldfresh:

i don’t see the issue then. �seth can you elaborate?

Sub combat on triplea is handled illegally. I stated so after the first round and asked him to continue the battle on the forum. I also warned him that I wouldn’t feel compelled to accept the combat results if he rolled further sub combat via triplea.

I decided to accept the first round since I didn’t know what he knew about the triplea issue and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also made sure he knew what the issue was so he’d know in the future.

It doesn’t matter what the results are if you do something illegally. Note that I hadn’t seen the combat result prior to issuing my warning about not accepting the dice rolls. This isn’t something that I started protesting AFTER the fact, this is something that I made him aware of BEFORE he continued the roll. Not my fault he ignored both the rules and my explicitly stated wish for him to roll the sub combat on the forum.

The issue you pointed out is absolutely true. But this issue doesn’t affect our game’s outcome even a tiny bit. �You probably wanna see dice results(for both subs and the rest of the attacking force) all together. Preferably in � one same battle window screen, right? But the fact is that this software is made this way –- subs roll first then the rest. So we have to live with it. The dice results come out separately in 2 screen. But you still see both before you need to do anything, don’t you? I would not be able to take advantage of this. �Please don’t think I am ignoring you or cheating.

No we don’t have to live with it! That’s the whole point of rolling things out in the forum. And maybe that particular roll precluded me having any further impact in that battle via OOL. But you had NO way of knowing so prior to you actually rolling. You proceeded to roll things out despite knowing that triplea did things illegally and you still don’t seem to get that triplea rolling the subs incorrectly is wrong or a big deal. And you continued despite me telling you to roll on the forum. Those rolls happened AFTER I asked you not to roll on triplea and gave you the link to the document that clearly states what the issue is.

Just because the rolls in this instance wiped me out doesn’t mean your decision to ignore both myself and the rules is right by any means.

Gamer,

I know certain people on this site don’t like mixing sport analogies into this game. But I’m going to use one anyway to see if I can help you understand where I’m coming from. Say there’s holding on a defensive end after the ball carrier is already past the defender. The ball carrier proceeds to race 40 yards and into the endzone for the TD. Now even though that DE had absolutely no play on the running back, the ref sees the hold and correctly throws the flag. The referees confer with each other and call the play back to the spot of the foul and tack on 10 yards. They’re not going to say well gee it’s only fair that we spot the ball on the 1 yard line since the holding didn’t really affect the play. If something’s illegal, the resulting play or outcome shouldn’t be impacted by anything else.

I’m not asking that MagicQ be penalized as it’s clear he’s not trying to cheat or take advantage of something. He just didn’t grasp the impact that attacking subs rolling first has on the game. I’m not asking for anything but for Rd2 to be rerolled. He’ll still probably wipe me out. But I understand that’s it’s not guaranteed he would, so I’m willing to offer him a LL reroll on the battle from Rd2 if I somehow win. That way he’s protected from getting diced in reverse. I’d be satisfied with this.

[seth4god]

@MagicQ:

I believe in using forum dice when we have to. In this case, not necessary apparently. Don’t you agree?

Nope, because you had no way to KNOW what you would have rolled or what I would have rolled PRIOR to actually rolling things. You admitted to as much earlier.
@MagicQ:

In both case, I could still roll the sub’s dice first. And there is 66% chance (nil hit or 2 hits) I could skip asking you. Thus, save time for both of us.

Although I’m not sure about your math there.  :wink:

[seth4god]

Gamer,

So my counter-proposal. Rd1 stands as I already indicated I’d live with it and I still don’t have an issue with it. Rd2 reroll on the forum and as many as needed to resolve the battle. If by chance I somehow win, we will re-reroll sz92 using LL to help protect MagicQ from a reverse dicing. MagicQ has full rights to COMPLETELY change his ncm and placements after the battle has been resolved.

I will live with your earlier compromise if you are still 100% on it after reading my posts, thinking about it more, and reading my counter proposal. No, I’m not happy with your ruling and I can’t promise that I won’t try to find a witch doctor with a voodoo doll. Throwing a unit of MagicQ’s must die smacks of pity for the dicing rather more so than ‘fairness’. But part of playing with league games means agreeing to live with official rulings. The only question I’d have at that point would be which unit dies. Your decision, his decision, or my decision? I threw out my decision as tongue in cheek, so take it in the spirit it was offered.  :wink:

And no, I don’t have an issue with you MagicQ. Just try to respect your opponent’s wishes in the future.  :-D