Submerged submarines and opening fire questions

[Cancuino]

Hi all, after reading the manual I have some questions:

1.- When I retreat a submarine, I must submerge it, but what for?, what is the advantage of this if when I finish the non combat move I must emerge it?.

2.- If I finish an attack turn and after removing casualties I decide to attack again, but antiaircraft guns and battleships that conducted shore bombardment are already over the gameboard, so does the antiaircraft loose its opening fire capabilities in this new attack?.

3.- If I have submarines in the last attack, so they loose their opening fire too?.

I hope you can understand me, english is not my first tongue.

Thanks.

[TimTheEnchanter]

1. I’m pretty sure you can either do either a traditional retreat or use a submerge with attacking subs.  The big advantage is that you can use it on defense as well.

The advantage of submerging is that the sub can get out of a battle it doesn’t want to fight and can live to see another day.  The benefits of this are twofold - (1) on attack it lets you occupy the seazone (along with the defender) into the next turn so that the other side must respond to it on the combat move of their turn.  I also believe this blocks them from loading transports in that zone because it is now contested.  (2) Perhaps most importantly, you can also submerge on defense, so if you survive the first round of battle you keep that sub around until your turn so you can either move it to safety, use it on attack somewhere else, or bring in help from other places in a counterattack.  This is important when unguarded subs are attacked by planes.  The subs can’t fire back but they can submerge if they survive 1 round of attack.

2&3) AA guns and Battleship bombardment only happen on opening fire of the first round of battle, then they are returned to the game board.  Because subs are not returned to the board (unless they submerge), they continue to get opening round shots during every round of battle.

Don’t worry about your english.  You seem to do at least as well as some of us native speakers. ;)

[Cancuino]

Thanks for your answer and about my english  :wink:.

1.- You say that you can do a traditional retreat or a submerge with attacking subs, but the manual says:
“Submarines on both sides may retreat during this step by submerging.It remains submerged until the end of the noncombat move phase. (Submerged submarines do not stop enemy sea units from moving through their sea zone.)”

I think that the only way a submarine can retreat is by submerging, not the traditional way. Am I right?

2.- I have another doubt about the quote below, the manual says “Submerged submarines do not stop enemy sea units from moving through their sea zone”, I think this is only possible on a defending submarine that retreats (submerge) making possible for the opposite player get move through it, isn’ it?.

Thanks in advance.

[TimTheEnchanter]

It says they “may” retreat by submerging, it does not say “must”.  Earlier in the OOB rules it states you can retreat if you “Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat to a single adjacent friendly space from which at least one of the attacking units moved”  Note that it does not say all sea units except Subs.

I think the implication is that if you do a full retreat, you can bring your subs with you, OR you can submerge them and the other units can carry on with the battle if you so desire.

I think this is even more clear in the Larry Harris Tournament Rules (LHTR) which are the default rules for a lot of the league and tournament games played at this site. The LHTR 2.0 clearly states that subs’ ability to submerge is in addition to normal retreat.  "Sea units normally withdraw by retreating one space away from the contested space. The retreat space must have been friendly at the beginning of the turn.

Submarines have an additional withdrawal capability that may be exercised at the end of ANY round of combat. Submarines may withdraw by submerging. They do not have to all submerge at the same time. Only submarines may submerge." (emphasis added)

[tekkyy]

1. For defender is true that the only way a submarine can retreat is by submerging, not the traditional way.

For attacker, submarines can still retreat from attack in a normal fashion like other naval units.

2. Yes that is correct. Since attacking submarines submerge on owner’s turn, by the time its opposite players’ turn it would have surfaced.

[TimTheEnchanter]

Re: #2 Yes, it only applies to defenders who submerge because if the attacker submerges, the boats must resurface before the next player moves.  It applies during the attacker’s non-combat move phase.

[TimTheEnchanter]

@tekkyy:

1. For defender is true that the only way a submarine can retreat is by submerging, not the traditional way.

Well, technically the only “traditional” way for defenders to retreat is to get shot. ;)

[tekkyy]

Hehe. Just using the same setence as the OP to show that what he/she thought was correct, but only for defender.

[Cancuino]

Thank you both, it’s crystal clear now  :wink:.

[Cancuino]

One more doubt, imagine that both, attacker and defender have submarines submerged, at the end of the non combat movement they all resurface or only the attacker’s ones?, I think that all of them but I’m not sure at all.

Thanks.

[Guest]

All SUBs re-surface at the end of any national turn of movement.

[Randmacts]

This probably sounds like a stupid question, and has probably been covered before and I think I know the ruling as I have just performed such a feat. If a lone Sub shoots at an AC with 2 Ftrs on it and hits, does the AC sink with the Ftrs on it or do the Ftrs survive to land on a nearby Island?

[tekkyy]

The fighters survive and continue to fight unless the fighters were cargo.

[Randmacts]

Righto so the attack began with 1 Sub attacking an AC with 2 Ftrs on it, I assume they would be classed as cargo until that Sub misses, and then the AC and 2 Ftrs get a defence shot correct?

[a44bigdog]

Cargo in this case refers to allied fighters on an attacking carrier. With the situation in question Any fighters would retreat 1 space to a safe landing zone or be destroyed.

[Guest]

The only time that FIGs die immediately with a sunk AC is if the AC is doing the ATTACKING and the FIG(s) on it belong to another nation from your side.  That is the only time that FIGs on an AC are considered “cargo”

If you are the one that attacks an AC with multinational FIGs on it, then it is just like any other battle against multinational forces, ALL forces defend against the attack.

So, the SUB vs. AC w/FIGs breaks down as:

1.  SUB Attacking AC w/ FIGs:  Both AC and FIGs defend.  SUB can of course only score hits on the AC not on the FIGs.  If the AC is sunk, the FIGs may continue to fight as long as the attack continues.  After the battle, the FIGs may move ONE SPACE in an effort to land.  If they cannot reach a legal landing zone in one move, they die.

2.  AC w/ multinational FIGs attacking SUB:  FIGs from a nation other than the owner of the AC are CARGO for the battle and cannot attack.  If the AC is sunk, the cargo FIGs sink with it.  If the FIGs are from the same nation as the owner of the AC, they attack and move normally for the combat.

[Imperious Leader]

Under item #2 allied fighters cannot be allocated as a hit allocation because they are not rolling on the attack so they are ignored.

Also,  Under item #1 if your carrier is defending and has fighters from allied players they can be allocated as hits on defence and roll out as well.

of course some of this is totally bogus and is totally unrealistic.but oh well.