Italian Weakness

[gperson2]

I’m currently having issues playing as the Axis when it comes to Italy. I’m typically invading Gibraltar and Malta I1, but my navy is always crushed after by the British. And then the US pours a ton into the Med and I’m losing all of my money to convoy strikes every turn. What’s a different approach that works?

[Eqqman]

It’s tough to say since you need a holistic approach that incorporates all the Axis powers.  Clearly there is nothing really Italy can do by itself against the US and UK if it is sitting with 10 - 20 IPCs a turn.  Generally I’ve seen a few approaches:

• Have Germany take Southern France so that it can trickle in some ships.

• Have Germany take Yugoslavia so that it can build an Air Base there.  Combined with Italian-based air power this gives you a 6 unit scramble which should help a lot to protect SZ97.  If Germany also drops a Naval Base into the territory, it can also contribute ships that way instead of using France.

• Have Germany use its Air Force to clean out all Allied ships that make an appearance.

• Any combination of the above, obviously…

The biggest thing to remember, is that if the US is making enough of a problem on the Europe board that Italy can’t handle it even with German help, then Japan is clearly not doing enough on the other board to attract the Allies’ attention.  The Pacific board is grossly weighted to an Axis victory.  If you skip the early DoW, at the end of J3 you should be able to have just about every Chinese territory in hand plus most of Siberia, or, if you went with the early attack, you should be parked off Malaya with the fleet and hold the DEI.  In either case, the US will be forced to ease up on assisting in the Med or risk losing on the Pacific map.

EDIT: I should mention that I’ve lost a couple of league games as the Allies even with having Italy down to collecting around 7 IPC a turn, because I couldn’t do that and keep Japan down enough to prevent them from turning the tide to the Axis` favor.

[variance]

Why Malta?  Have you thought of saving up for a carrier?

[Eqqman]

I’ve seen plenty of Malta attacks, if the Axis thinks they can clean out British air that landed there after a strong SZ97 hit.

[gperson2]

Why Malta?  Have you thought of saving up for a carrier?

I never have anywhere to put it. The British just sit next to Italy and kill anything that I build. And the Germans are usually using all of their IPCs on Russia so they aren’t much of a help. Taking out Malta and holding most of North Africa at least buys me a few bombing run-free turns.

[knp7765]

Yeah, Malta often gets ignored in our games which can be a real pain to Italy. We had a game a while back where UK landed a lot of planes there plus a couple of US bombers so Italy threw everything they had at Malta – 2 transports full, all their air plus a BB and CA shot. It cost Italy almost everything they had in that battle, but they took Malta and killed a bunch of Allied planes in the process.

Strangely enough, whomever plays Italy still ends up leaving Malta alone and the Brits keep using it as an airbase to harass Italian shipping and SBR their factories. I think it is because Italy starts out so poor that whomever plays them wants to make more money fast so they concentrate on places that are worth IPCs.

[gperson2]

whomever plays them wants to make more money fast so they concentrate on places that are worth IPCs

Is that what I should be doing? Maybe sending both transports to Syria for an Iraq grab? The problem I have with that is that the Italian fleet always gets crushed by the British B2 since they’re away from any airbases.

[variance]

I like Italy to get Greece, Bulgaria, and Yugo after the Germans strafe thru it.  That gives Italy just enough income to do something with.  If you have Greece then its safer to go after Syria, plus you get a nice landing spot for planes from Rome airbase to hit z98.  If you send transports to Syria you will want a carrier or an airbase on Greece.  Watch out for allied planes from Bransk or Moscow that can hit you and land in Cyprus.  I don’t really like Italy taking French territories because they often become American.

[gperson2]

If we’re having Italy take over the Balkans, then what does the Africa situation end up looking like? Taking Egypt is not usually a problem with the Tobruk guys, but it gets crushed by tanks out of South Africa.

[Cow]

I do not put much stock in Italy. Just do what you can with it and hope for the best. If you can take egypt or have a good crack at it, then do it. You basically just want to be a distraction or side show, the main thing is germany taking russia or japan getting the VCs needed to win.

The Allies are meant to solve Italy, otherwise they would lose every time.

[Guest]

Taking Malta can be a real thorn in the British players side, especially if they have no transports handy. They lose their $5 NO for having their original territories.

[Tortn91]

When I’m playing Italy, I take control over Gibraltar, Southern France, and Egypt earning 5IPC and then crushing the British and french fleet in mediterranean and get 5IPC more.
Then taking Northern Africa and later Cairo and become even greater than Germany.

[Degrasse]

What works as Italy?  That’s a good question to ask because there are several themes to an Axis victory and some of them run counter to success as Italy.

Italy’s weaknesses:
1. Small starting economy
2. Convoy raids in sea zone 97 can destroy the economy
3. Destroyers needed to prevent convoy raids are vulnerable to aircraft
4. Building a large fleet to protect sea zone 97 is expensive and so is building multiple air bases and fighters
5. Requires experience with amphibious operations to threaten Gibraltar, Greece, and Egypt.
6. Gibraltar is one fleet move from US
7. Moves late in turn order after Britain

Italy’s advantage:
1. Germany can help if they hold Southern France, Yugoslavia, or Greece
2. Egypt can be taken
3. Numerous National Objectives that can be achieved
  a. no surface warships in Med
  b. take northern coast of Africa
  c. take 3 of Egypt, Greece, Southern France, or Gibraltar
  d. oil bonus for Iraq, Persia, or northwest persia
4. Can opening moves in Russia

So as an example, a J1 attack on the US is tough for Italy as the US can immediately begin dumping submarines into the Med. A J4 attack is good for Italy as it keeps the US out of of the war but that makes winning in the Pacific tough.

B1 attacks usually wipe out sea zone 96 (DD and transport) and often sea zone 97 (BB, CA, and transport).  If Germany doesn’t threaten Sea Lion, sea zone 95 (SS, CC, CA, and transport) get attacked as well.

So Italy should adopt a range of strategies depending on what Germany is doing.  Worst case would be G1 J1 where Italy is going to be picked off first as the weakest Axis power.  US and UK submarines will start arriving on turn 3 so buying destroyers early will be necessary.  A very defensive Italy would leave the troops in Africa to hold out as best they could, stack infantry in Italy, and defend sea zone 97 with destroyers and fighters from air bases.

If Germany and Japan are going for a G3/4 Sea Lion and J3/4 India Crush, then there should be a lot less pressure in the Med on Italy.  No US subs to deal with and the UK and French Navies should be getting hammered by German aircraft.  Germany needs to help in South France, Yugo, or Greece by build more destroyers and air bases.  The more aggressive Italian fleet still needs to stay in cover of air bases, so going to Syria with air cover from Greece is a decent option.  The other way is to look at the transports as expendable and just expect them to be sunk after delivering troops to Syria, Trans-Jordan, or Egypt.  Grabbing Gibraltar is fun but submarines get past anyway and the US wil eventually just send more troops than Italy can stop.  Italian submarines in this case are handy as they can go all over the Med from their central position.

[Omega1759]

The game attached below is one example how Italy can play a role. It was a G5/J4 game against Anchovy, a very strong opponent…

I was able to lock up the med for the whole game.

[Azrael TheArchangel]

@Tortn91:

When I’m playing Italy, I take control over Gibraltar, Southern France, and Egypt earning 5IPC and then crushing the British and french fleet in mediterranean and get 5IPC more.
Then taking Northern Africa and later Cairo and become even greater than Germany.

If you take over Egypt, you’ve already got Cairo… ?

[builder_chris2]

@Azrael:

@Tortn91:

When I’m playing Italy, I take control over Gibraltar, Southern France, and Egypt earning 5IPC and then crushing the British and french fleet in mediterranean and get 5IPC more.
Then taking Northern Africa and later Cairo and become even greater than Germany.

If you take over Egypt, you’ve already got Cairo… ?

how do you do that with italy when right out of the gate, the UK sinks 2 of thier 3 starting transports?  even if you build a transport I1 you will only have enough IPC to build 1 so if u r lucky u have 2 transports to use on I2.  not enough in my games to take egypt on I2.

what am i missing?

[Eqqman]

@builder_chris2:

how do you do that with italy when right out of the gate, the UK sinks 2 of thier 3 starting transports?  even if you build a transport I1 you will only have enough IPC to build 1 so if u r lucky u have 2 transports to use on I2.  not enough in my games to take egypt on I2.

what am i missing?

It depends a lot on what the UK does.  If they turtle up in Egypt, then you move up into Alexandria and Sudan and land men in Alexandria or Jordan (if you can get Jordan, then that traps any UK ships in the Indian Ocean from helping the Med UK2 or even 3).  If you built a Transport I1, then all these men plus the Italian air force + 2 more units from Italy usually have good odds to take out Egypt I2.

For this reason I’m starting to favor being less powerful as the UK in SZ97 attacks, since if you are too strong, then Italy doesn’t scramble and you miss the chance to kill their Fighters.  In the worst case with an overwhelming hit in SZ97, the UK could be landing plenty of air units in Malta that will then be covering Egypt I2, so it probably behooves the German player to encourage RAF scrambles in the UK during G1 so this doesn’t happen (and also hit the French fleet, so Italy doesn’t have to worry about it).

[builder_chris2]

@Eggman:

so it probably behooves the German player to encourage RAF scrambles in the UK during G1 so this doesn’t happen (and also hit the French fleet, so Italy doesn’t have to worry about it).

thisis what i do with my germans, i try to entice the UK into a scramble situation on G1 hoping they take the bait and loose fighters so they dont have what it takes to kill italy UK1, but MAYBE 1 out of 10 someone takes the bait.  most UK players want to kill italy ships in the med more than they want to kill off german air G1.  they prefer to cripple itally.  only a G1 sea lion build/threat ever helps to save italy’s sz97 fleet in my games.

[Tortn91]

@Azrael:

@Tortn91:

When I’m playing Italy, I take control over Gibraltar, Southern France, and Egypt earning 5IPC and then crushing the British and french fleet in mediterranean and get 5IPC more.
Then taking Northern Africa and later Cairo and become even greater than Germany.

If you take over Egypt, you’ve already got Cairo… ?

Oops I mean South Africa  :-P

[knp7765]

Italy can actually be a great help to the Axis. If Germany successfully pulls a Sealion, UK is pretty much out of the game and Italy will be able to finish off what UK units are left while grabbing Africa and the Middle East, leaving Germany to fully deal with Russia.
If Sealion doesn’t happen, then (at least in our games) the UK player ends up spending most of their resources keeping Italy down and again Germany is able to deal with Russia.
The thing that throws a wrench in their plans is if the US makes a substantial presence in Europe. Of course, this is hard for the Allies because you don’t want to just let Japan free to rampage though the Pacific.
It’s hard to decide as the US player just how much to split your economy to keep the Axis from winning on one board or the other. Usually, if Sealion doesn’t happen and UK stays in the game, as the US I put almost 100% in the Pacific to try and neutralize Japan as quickly as possible, hoping that Russia can hold out long enough and the UK can keep Italy down while perhaps causing the Germans enough problems to at least slow their drive toward Moscow.
However, if Sealion does happen, the US has to put more in the Atlantic. At least enough to keep Italy in check. Still, that may give Japan just enough to gain the advantage.