Great, sounds good to me.
National Objectives
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Pouting now that your troll thread was deleted?
When you mock me like that (soon you will claim that when you were referring to those to whom public opinion does not matter, you were somehow not referring to me. :roll:)
We have seen your true colors. They include misdirection, poor/misleading/nonexistent sourcing, childish repeat-till-it’s-true argumentation, employing of a second account to agree with you, and encouraging violence and death to your debate opponents.
The real question should be why are YOU still here? Is there no one else with an elementary school education able to remove spam?
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You sound like that guy who didn’t get Sanford and Son season 4.
I hope you don’t infect the other threads like this one since they took playground from baby.
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New poster, but long time gamer.
In terms of National Objectives, I believe they are too restrictive and create a gaming experience that is heavily scripted.
what I’ve done in the past with other A&A titles and similar grand strategic war games is create a National Morale or Will Track.
For WWI, I would establish a 3 Theater Track - Western Theater, Eastern Theater, and Mediteranean Theater. Each starts at ‘0’ and moves in favor of Entente or Central Powers on a set critera, such as IPC’s gained or lost on a single turn in one of the theaters for example. Then set a prescribed turn to end the game on (say 10 turns). If no one has reached ‘immediate’ victory by gaining a certain number on each of the theater tracks) then the game ends and whichever side is ahead on 2 of the 3 theater tracks wins a conditional victory.
I’ve found that this creates a lot of tension and opens up strategies with many options and many different paths to victory. Obviously some conditions would be considered heavily on the tracks, such as the loss of Paris or Berlin, or the High Seas Fleet controlling the channel. Additionally, the game can be played out in 2 to 2.5 hours a big plus for me.
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I’m in favour of a national morale tracker, but to decide when a power collapses into disorder and revolution.
I’ve suggested NOs for fear of the game getting bogged down with the defensive dominating and nobody prepared to launch attacks.
A further development of this is that the NOs actually become the victory conditions. Say you have 9 NOs per side; if at any time one side holds an agreed number of NOs at the end of a turn it wins. I agree this can seem scripted, but the NOs I’ve listed correspond with the actual pre-war goals of the major powers (or could be easily adjusted to do so), so I don’t think this is artificial.
Something else I’ve been thinking about is mandatory attacks. Larry has already fixed an (unhistorical) Austrian invasion of Serbia as mandatory on turn 1. I’m guessing that a German turn 1 attack on Belgium may follow the same pattern. So, in order to keep the meat-grinder turning, and stop everyone turning turtle, perhaps every player turn MUST involve at least one attack with a minimum number of units, or a battle involving a minimum number in total.
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The NO’s then would give a VP to players rather than IPC.
That would feed the morale tracker up or down.
And probably each turn a nation would reduce the NM by X
Keeping NO’s raises a nations “resolve” above water
sort of like being in the red or black in business. and each nation with a different starting point ( e.g. a different ‘breaking point’)
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Yes, one of the reasons I never really liked NOs is that artificial IPC income. Here it can be points towards victory conditions, and/or moving national morale levels up or down.
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Lets work on this using the idea.
Idea: when a nation drops into negative integers it must sue for peace. Each NO you got on your list increases the resolve by one point per turn.
Each turn subtracts one resolve unit
Other events should also trigger ( not unlike a note) the resolve, like US entering the game, or losing a big battle, etc.
What would they be?
Remember KISS, not world in flames chrome rules.
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I still prefer “collapse into Revolution” to “sue for peace”. Civil wars and such.
How to distinguish between them?
From my post in another thread:
Until we find out the official victory conditions, let me argue for the game being won by collapse in national morale, rather than the capture of specific tts.
This is entirely historical, and avoids the silly old capture the capital rules.
So - a track to record national morale levels in the same manner as IPC incomes.
Ranges from +10 to -20.
-11 to -20 is “Disorder”. A nation in Disorder has limited function; in particular its units may mutiny, and it is more susceptible to negative effect event cards.
below -20 is “Revolution”. A country in Revolution is effectively out of the game, but may be able to recover (but this is unlikely).
A side which has all its major nations in Revolution or defeated has lost. It is possible that both sides may collapse simultaneously, in which case both sides lose!
All nations begin at 0 morale. Although it can be argued that some nations were happy to go to war in order to disguise unrest as home, the assumption is that people at first are caught up in a rush of patriotism. In the end the war collapses as people get sick of the casualties and food shortages, so there is a finite game length: it shouldn’t go on beyond 1919.
At the moment, my list of factors effecting morale is:
Lose capital: minus 5
Lose any other home tt: minus 2
Lose any other tt: minus 1
Lose convoy: minus 1
Lose 10 units in combat*: minus 1
Suffer a bombing raid on your capital (1st time): minus 3
Suffer a bombing raid on your capital: minus 1
Lose a dreadnought: minus 1
End of 1st year of war: minus 1 (all powers)
End of 2nd year: minus 2 (all powers)
End of 3rd year: minus 3 (all powers)
End of 4th year: minus 4 (all powers)
End of 5th year: minus 5 (all powers)Capture an enemy (not minor nations) capital: plus 5
Capture any other enemy tt (not neutral nations): plus 1
Bomb an enemy capital: plus 1
Build a new dreadnought: plus 1Clearly the weight is towards declining morale; it is ultimately a matter of survival.
- I suggest having a “casualties box” for eliminated units. When a nation has 10 units in there, return them to the national unit box and move their morale marker 1 step down.
The CB can also be used to implement certain event cards, such as:
Czech Legion: Russia may take 3 Austrian units from the CB, return them to the supply box, and place 3 Russian infantry in any Russian centre. This represents the recruitment of national minority units from enemy POWs.
Other event cards can effect morale directly, such as Germany sending Lenin to Russia (which must be in disorder).
- I suggest having a “casualties box” for eliminated units. When a nation has 10 units in there, return them to the national unit box and move their morale marker 1 step down.
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no no no. too complicated.
Just take the NO’s you made, use that for the -1 morale cost.
then create starting points for each nation;
For CP, Germany has the most, followed by Austro, then ottoman
For Entente, Russia has the least, then Italy, France, UK, USA.
Example: Germany at +8, Austro +5, Ottoman +3
etc.
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Agreed. Keep it simple. Can’t stress enough the importance of tracks for different Fronts/Theaters. This will keep it interesting and relevant for all players. If the Aust/Hun are getting hammered by the Russians/Italians, the Germans or Turks may have to come to their aid, which in turn takes pressure of the Western Front and opens door for British in Mediteranean, etc. etc…creates a strategic chess match.
Have to see the actual map before I make any definitive judgement, but preliminarily I would say key map areas would gain 2 points, lesser map areas 1 point, elimination of X number of BP’s gains 1 point, failed attacks (losing more BP’s than defender -1 point)….something like that.
If at the end of a game turn either Alliance has enough combined points on all 3 fronts or 2 fronts are past the Alliances Morale Factor limit the game ends immediately. It would be possible and appropriate if one side were to be able to win in 4 or 5 turns. However, the risk of overextending is obvisous, as you encourage both counterattacks, and failed attacks could also cost you negative points.
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Make it like something Larry would make if he was forced too. People identify with something that familiar and uncomplicated.
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Simple: you gain morale points when you successfully take enemy territories or eliminate all enemy units within a territory. If you fail, you risk losing morale points. The rewards are greater if you attack, but not always. This prevents turtling, but also prevents ridiculous attack, attack, attack, without any consequence.
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That simple? Have to sleep on that one.
SWR66: I think its sufficient that the NOs are spread around the theatres.
In fact this can be simplified to a VC for each side in each theatre:
London-Berlin (North Sea)
Paris-Essen (Western Front)
Rome-Vienna (Alpine Front/Adriatic)
Konigsburg-Petrograd (Baltic)
Lemberg-Kiev (Ukraine)
Brazzaville-Dar-es-Salaam (Central Africa)
Cairo-Damascus (Middle East)
Delhi-Baghdad (Mesopotamia)
Tiflis-Constantinople (Caucasus/Black Sea)
New York-Mexico City (Rio Grande Front)But this will have to be revised based on the map. For example if Western Germany is divided north/south we might get
Paris-Stuttgart
Brussels-EssenIf there is no Mexico New York cannot count.
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I don’t think my system is that complicated.
But lets try paring it down:
Capture a tt (not contested) +1
Lose a tt -1
(possibly modified by the IPC value of the tt?)
Every 10 units destroyed -1
Win a naval battle +1
Lose a naval battle -1
(minimum numbers involved may need to be applied to the above)
End of 1st year of war: minus 1 (all powers)
End of 2nd year: minus 2 (all powers)
End of 3rd year: minus 3 (all powers)
End of 4th year: minus 4 (all powers)
End of 5th year: minus 5 (all powers)I still like this. It forces an end to the war due to natural breakdown and all countries running out of manpower.
Thus, even though overall morale for winning/losing battles balances out, the increasing casualties and war weariness ultimately brings everyone down towards collapse.
I would start everyone on the same level; America starts when it enters, so is more likely to stay the course than the rest.
There is a slight problem in defining “losing a battle” when mixed forces are involved, but we need more info on the game system to determine that.
I could add more, such as having the highest scoring fighter plane, but you wanted simple.
Having your capital bombed was a big downer, and the public forced governments to build bombers of their own to retaliate, but no bombers scuppers this one.
Simple: you gain morale points when you successfully take enemy territories or eliminate all enemy units within a territory. If you fail, you risk losing morale points. The rewards are greater if you attack, but not always. This prevents turtling, but also prevents ridiculous attack, attack, attack, without any consequence.
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Well actually we don’t know what the VC are, but that list is much closer than before.
But for each city taken you gain 1 VP
lost you lose 1 VP
Each turn you lose 1 VP ( the cost of war)
Each NO you gain 1 VP
Each battle lost on your own starting areas you lose 1 VPno income for NO’s or VC… this is not global.
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Sounds like we’re moving in the same or similar direction. Just have to wait and see the finished product and go from there. I’m aiming at making a tight game that can be finished in an evening (or it will be sitting on the shelf for long periods).
I’ll create my chart or track at that point and share the results…we’ll see.
It’s cool to see WWI using the system…I like the map better. Turkey’s location adds extra flavor and the German High Seas Fleet was second only to the British. Attrition played a big roll on the Western Front and Eastern Front was sweeping. It just feels less scripted than WWII, which I love as a period, but games on the grand strategic level feel “samey.”
Cheers…
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Austria Hungary
Brothers In Arms - The Austro-Hungarian and German armies cooperated closely on the eastern front, their common language and heritage strengthened their alliance.
5 IPCs if German and Austro-Hungarian units co-occupy/co-contest at least two Allied territories.Avenge the Archduke - As Europe descended into war it was not forgotten what had started the whole affair, to Austria-Hugary the suppression of Serbian radicals was a top priority.
5 IPCs if at least 5 Austro-Hungarian units occupy Serbia and no enemy units are in territories adjacent to Serbia.Trippe Alliance - Though relations with Italy were strained, remaining at peace with them allowed men and material to be put to better use elsewhere, for the time being.
5 IPCs if Italy does not control or contest any Austro-Hungarian territories, and Austria-Hungary does not control or contest any Italian territoriesGermany
Not Quiet on the Western Front - The thrust of the German army into France kept the fight off of German soil, farms rather than trenches covered the German frontier.
5 IPCs if no German territories are controlled or contested by French, British, or American forces.War Under the High Seas - The German U-boat fleet prowled the North Atlantic, wreaking havoc on allied shipping. The success of this new technology was a source of national pride.
5 IPCs if Germany controls three or more submarines.Eyes Turn Eastward - The German armies in the east gained ground quickly at the expense of Russia, the German Empire reaped the rewards of this newly acquired territory.
5 IPCs if Germany controls Poland and controls all its original territories.Ottoman Empire
Keepers of the Faith - The Ottoman Empire ruled over Christians, Jews, and Muslims; their control of the holy city of Jerusalem was vital to keeping their multicultural empire together.
5 IPCs as long as the Ottomans control Palestine and at least 5 Ottoman units occupy it.The Sick Man of Europe - The Ottoman Empire’s precarious situation stemmed from having such a broad empire that was vulnerable from attack from many directions.
5 IPCs as long as no Allied naval units border an Ottoman TerritoryCaliphate Reborn - The Ottoman Empire’s borders used to spread much farther into Africa and the Middle East, and could again if the colonial powers are expelled.
5 IPCs for control of Egypt, Perisa, and ArabiaUnited Kingdom
Naval Superiority - The United Kingdom was the undisputed master of the high seas, and was intent on keeping it that way
5 IPCs if the United Kingdom is the power that controls the most Dreadnoughts, or none of the Central Powers controls a Dreadnought.Colonial Warfare - The confusion and chaos in Europe presented the perfect opportunity to invade Germany’s colonial possessions and throw them off the continent.
5 IPCs if Germany controls none of it’s original African Territories.France
A Matter of Pride - The sudden thrust into France put the nation immediately on the defensive, though victories did much to raise the morale of the French people
5 IPCs if France captures an occupied territory, or is victorious in repelling the enemy from a contested territory this round.Anchor of the Entente - The bulk of the fighting was taking place on the Western Front, this meant the alliance would crumble without fresh troops from around the world to hold the line.
5 IPCs if at least 5 units from the United Kingdom co-occupy a French territory contested by Germany, or bordering a German territory.Russia
Hold the Line - Under attack by three opponents, Russia struggled to make gains. Merely holding its own ground was a victory in and of itself.
5 IPCs if Russia controls or contests all its original territory.Revolution Pacified - With the threat of a revolution breaking out at home, Russian leaders had to minimize casualties to keep morale from slipping.
5 IPCs if Russia lost no more than 10 units this turn in combat.Italy
Triple Alliance - Germany and Austria-Hungary had hoped to keep Italy from joining the Allies and remaining neutral.
5 IPCs if Italy does not control or contest any Austro-Hungarian territories, and Austria-Hungary does not control or contest any Italian territories.Italian Expansion - Italy had plans to control the entire Adriatic coast, as relations with Austria-Hungary broke down, this became possible
5 IPCs if Italy controls all territories that adjacent to the Adriatic Sea (or they are neutral)United States
Over There, Over There - Once war was declared, US forces were the fresh bodies needed to break the stalemate in Europe
5 IPCs if at least 5 American units are in a European territory contested by Germany, or adjacent to German controlled territory in Europe.Safety on the High Seas - Only after the U-boat threat was eliminated could allied ships break from convoy formation and travel to and from Europe much faster and without fear.
5 IPCs if the United States has at least one surface warship in each Unrestricted Submarine Warfare Zone. -
Colonial Warfare:
Does this mean that Germany blocks the NO if it holds, for example, Mozambique?
Or are only the 4 original German tts involved; I had it that the CPs hold no tts whatever in Africa (including Egypt).
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Love the incentive to invest in subs for the Germans.
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Flash: Germany can take other colonies but the UK gets the bonus if it steals germany’s. This is a roundabout way of keeping the germans stationary in their own colonies.
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