AA Guns

[Derek]

@Uncrustable:

Why overrcomplicate things when you dont have to?
Instead of rolling 3 dice for AA in normal combat and having to get 2 hits, just roll one dice lol

So AAA current OOB rules, 3 dice per gun or number of aircraft (whichever is less) preemptive etc…
Then AFTER the preemptive AAA round, normal combat begins and AAA guns defend at a 1. Even if there is no aircraft present

So i have slightly changed my view on AAA (still agree with OOB rules on not moving during combat phase)

Increase the price to 6 per.

Now onto SBR…ive come up with a simple VERY SIMPLE way to help SBR and at the same time require more AAA guns to be present to protect bases

OK…THIS IS VERY EASY…AA guns get 3 dice rolls right? Let us say that naval bases, air bases and minor IC have built in AA, but like the normal AA, can only roll up to 3 dice. Major IC get 2 built in AA, so 6 dice. Easy right? and no need to change any cost of bases
You could supplement built in AA with AAA guns in the territory. But you would have to decide, BEFORE THE BOMBERS HAVE CHOSEN THEIR SPECIFIC TARGETS, what facility each AA gun is defending. (So one AAA gun cannot roll AA against bombers in 2 or more facilities.
Also if the territory is attacked conventionally aswell as SBR, then you must decide what your AA guns are going to do BEFORE ANY BATTLE STARTS
So what/how many AA guns will defend the tt, or naval base, or IC, etc

EXAMPLE:
-you have a territory, with an airbase, a naval base, and a major IC and 3 AAA guns.

-The airbase gets 3 aa rolls (as it has a built in AAA gun) same for the naval base. The major IC gets 6 AA rolls (as it has 2 built in AAA guns), and you also have 6 AA rolls in the 2 AAA units on the board

-lets say that your opponent sends in 10 bombers to SBR, AND attacks the tt (probably a rare occurence)
-So you decide to have 1 AAA gun defend against the conventional attack, 1 AAA gun will defend the major IC (meaning the Major IC now has up to 9 dice rolls) and 1 AAA gun to defend airbase (airbase now has 6 rolls) and that leaves the naval base with only 3 rolls

in summation
1-increase AAA cost to 6 IPC
2-reduce ‘built in AA’ to 3 dice rolls each for minor ICs and bases (essentially they have 1 ‘built in’ AAA gun) and major ICs to 6 rolls (2 built in AAA)
3-AAA guns on the board can be chosen to defend the territory OR a base or IC. Can only choose one per AAA gun.
4-AAA guns defend at 1 during normal combat (can hit anything, tank, bomber, infantry, etc…choose your own casualties)
5-No change to AAA preemptive rolls against enemy aircraft from OOB

Simple, effective
If anything it would produce more SBR, as built in AA is reduced (but not removed)
-Can overwelm AA defenses in SBR, defender can also increase AA defense in SBR by adding in AAA guns on the board.
MAkes the AAA an overall more effective unit, and i believe it would be purchased more

I like this so much i cant wait to implement it. It will by my house rule going forward in G40

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

So i have slightly changed my view on AAA (still agree with OOB rules on not moving during combat phase)

Increase the price to 6 per.

Now onto SBR…ive come up with a simple VERY SIMPLE way to help SBR and at the same time require more AAA guns to be present to protect bases

OK…THIS IS VERY EASY…AA guns get 3 dice rolls right? Let us say that naval bases, air bases and minor IC have built in AA, but like the normal AA, can only roll up to 3 dice. Major IC get 2 built in AA, so 6 dice. Easy right? and no need to change any cost of bases
You could supplement built in AA with AAA guns in the territory. But you would have to decide, BEFORE THE BOMBERS HAVE CHOSEN THEIR SPECIFIC TARGETS, what facility each AA gun is defending. (So one AAA gun cannot roll AA against bombers in 2 or more facilities.
Also if the territory is attacked conventionally as well as SBR, then you must decide what your AA guns are going to do BEFORE ANY BATTLE STARTS.
So what/how many AA guns will defend the tt, or naval base, or IC, etc

EXAMPLE:
-you have a territory, with an airbase, a naval base, and a major IC and 3 AAA guns.

-The airbase gets 3 aa rolls (as it has a built in AAA gun) same for the naval base. The major IC gets 6 AA rolls (as it has 2 built in AAA guns), and you also have 6 AA rolls in the 2 AAA units on the board

-lets say that your opponent sends in 10 bombers to SBR, AND attacks the tt (probably a rare occurence)
-So you decide to have 1 AAA gun defend against the conventional attack, 1 AAA gun will defend the major IC (meaning the Major IC now has up to 9 dice rolls) and 1 AAA gun to defend airbase (airbase now has 6 rolls) and that leaves the naval base with only 3 rolls

in summation
1-increase AAA cost to 6 IPC
2-reduce ‘built in AA’ to 3 dice rolls each for minor ICs and bases (essentially they have 1 ‘built in’ AAA gun) and major ICs to 6 rolls (2 built in AAA)
3-AAA guns on the board can be chosen to defend the territory OR a base or IC. Can only choose one per AAA gun.
4-AAA guns defend at 1 during normal combat (can hit anything, tank, bomber, infantry, etc…choose your own casualties)
5-No change to AAA preemptive rolls against enemy aircraft from OOB

Simple, effective
If anything it would produce more SBR, as built in AA is reduced (but not removed)
-Can overwelm AA defenses in SBR, defender can also increase AA defense in SBR by adding in AAA guns on the board.
MAkes the AAA an overall more effective unit, and i believe it would be purchased more

I like this so much i cant wait to implement it. It will by my house rule going forward in G40

As you mention this is a rare occasion when so many StrB are attacking.
Making SBR or TacBR on AB and NB is made by StrB and TacB only.
It reduces their number.

I rather rationalize the infinite number as a simplify rule, because their is seldom more than 6 planes over an IC.
And also because IC, NB and AB are small zone that can be intensively armed with AAguns.
And imply a specific and limited aerial-zone which can not be invaded in a one time by all planes. When planes are in large numbers, they must wait to prevent collisions between them over the specific target-zone. So every planes are passing over the same guns which are not short of ammos.

That why I prefer the simple OOB in-built AAgun rule.

In other part, I think the main reason which AAA are a separate unit now is to used them in combat situations. And your new HR about rolling @1 after first round is able by itself to promote more AAA buying.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable,
you quote your own post without adding anything?
What do you mean?

[Derek]

@Baron:

@Uncrustable,
you quote your own post without adding anything?
What do you mean?

I felt it necessary to repeat myself after reading your reply
:wink:

So you like AAA defending at 1 in normal combat as a normal unit? After preemptive AA rolls of course

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

@Baron:

@Uncrustable,
you quote your own post without adding anything?
What do you mean?

I felt it necessary to repeat myself after reading your reply
:wink:

So you like AAA defending at 1 in normal combat as a normal unit? After preemptive AA rolls of course

Repeating an idea is conditionning not arguing. :-D

Yes, we can surely think about how the Flak 88 was used during the war. It was famous for his anti-tank capacity. I’m sure it can be destructive against Art and Inf., also.

I’m just wondering, why Larry didn’t convert AAA to this kind, you are suggesting, of whole unit  without defect, instead of the OOB no defending value after first round.

Your suggestion, just remind me I had a conversation, a few month ago, with one of my friend while introducing this new unit to him, about making them regular unit defending @1 after first round of fire.

I’m not sure the Sealion adjustment for London was his main reason for forbidding AAA with a defense roll @1 like what you just propose as HR.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@Cmdr:

**If you want to go that many shots, what about having wounded planes.  **

If your plane is hit by AA Gun fire, you have a 1 in 6 chance (roll a 1 on a six sided die) and that plane can limp home under it’s own power and costs 1-3 IPC to repair or you may choose to ditch over the ocean instead of repairing the plane.  So instead of doing SBR dmg, you TAKE SBR dmg.  Sure it’s complicated, but it’s a house rule, it doesn’t have to be so easy anyone who can afford the box can figure it out. :P

Actually, **just the 1/6 chance to survive despite being hit, but having to leave the battle is fine with me.  **

I read a few more times your post. I see that I interpreted it incorrectly but nonetheless you give me some ideas about another way to play the AAA.

The first round, first strike is as usual and planes are destroyed.
The other rounds, AAA can still rolls @1/6 preemptively against up to 3 targets but instead of destroying a plane upon a hit, it is considered damaged and immediatly stop the battle.
Every plane hit by a AAA fire must quite the battle immediatly and have to land during NCM phase. Play it as an aerial retreat in an amphibious assault.

The plane is not considered destroyed.
But you don’t need to pay an additionnal cost to repair it since it was hit by an irregular HR bonus on AAA fire.
More, the attacker is actually paying a tactical cost since he can no more use a plane on any further attacking round including the one in which the preemptive AAA hit this plane.

What do you think about this?
A lot simpler than anything else no?

@Uncrustable,
what is your opinion about this one?
Is it too powerful to impose a retreat to any plane hit by AAA after the initial round?

[Derek]

@Baron:

@Uncrustable,
what is your opinion about this one?
Is it too powerful to impose a retreat to any plane hit by AAA after the initial round?

It is unnecessarily complex

I prefer simple, and i would prefer keeping with the flow of the current OOB rule set

@Uncrustable:

Why overrcomplicate things when you dont have to?
Instead of rolling 3 dice for AA in normal combat and having to get 2 hits, just roll one dice lol

So AAA current OOB rules, 3 dice per gun or number of aircraft (whichever is less) preemptive etc…
Then AFTER the preemptive AAA round, normal combat begins and AAA guns defend at a 1. Even if there is no aircraft present

So i have slightly changed my view on AAA (still agree with OOB rules on not moving during combat phase)

Increase the price to 6 per.

Now onto SBR…ive come up with a simple VERY SIMPLE way to help SBR and at the same time require more AAA guns to be present to protect bases

OK…THIS IS VERY EASY…AA guns get 3 dice rolls right? Let us say that naval bases, air bases and minor IC have built in AA, but like the normal AA, can only roll up to 3 dice. Major IC get 2 built in AA, so 6 dice. Easy right? and no need to change any cost of bases
You could supplement built in AA with AAA guns in the territory. But you would have to decide, BEFORE THE BOMBERS HAVE CHOSEN THEIR SPECIFIC TARGETS, what facility each AA gun is defending. (So one AAA gun cannot roll AA against bombers in 2 or more facilities.
Also if the territory is attacked conventionally aswell as SBR, then you must decide what your AA guns are going to do BEFORE ANY BATTLE STARTS
So what/how many AA guns will defend the tt, or naval base, or IC, etc

EXAMPLE:
-you have a territory, with an airbase, a naval base, and a major IC and 3 AAA guns.

-The airbase gets 3 aa rolls (as it has a built in AAA gun) same for the naval base. The major IC gets 6 AA rolls (as it has 2 built in AAA guns), and you also have 6 AA rolls in the 2 AAA units on the board

-lets say that your opponent sends in 10 bombers to SBR, AND attacks the tt (probably a rare occurence)
-So you decide to have 1 AAA gun defend against the conventional attack, 1 AAA gun will defend the major IC (meaning the Major IC now has up to 9 dice rolls) and 1 AAA gun to defend airbase (airbase now has 6 rolls) and that leaves the naval base with only 3 rolls

in summation
1-increase AAA cost to 6 IPC
2-reduce ‘built in AA’ to 3 dice rolls each for minor ICs and bases (essentially they have 1 ‘built in’ AAA gun) and major ICs to 6 rolls (2 built in AAA)
3-AAA guns on the board can be chosen to defend the territory OR a base or IC. Can only choose one per AAA gun.
4-AAA guns defend at 1 during normal combat (can hit anything, tank, bomber, infantry, etc…choose your own casualties)
5-No change to AAA preemptive rolls against enemy aircraft from OOB

Simple, effective
If anything it would produce more SBR, as built in AA is reduced (but not removed)
-Can overwelm AA defenses in SBR, defender can also increase AA defense in SBR by adding in AAA guns on the board.
MAkes the AAA an overall more effective unit, and i believe it would be purchased more

I like this so much i cant wait to implement it. It will by my house rule going forward in G40

This covers all grounds,
-does not reduce SBR (if anything a slight increase)
-increase effectiveness and hence the purchasability of AAA guns
-keeps with the flow of current OOB rules
-simple (if anything its almost even more simple than current OOB rules, as AAA guns would be a normal unit that cant move during combat phase, defends at 1, with a special ability to roll AA against planes before battle starts. And bases/minor get 1 AAA built in, majors get 2 AAA built in, easy.

I have also thought about letting AAA guns attack too, one a 1 as a normal unit. ONLY GETS AA DICE IN DEFENSE. So an attacking AAA just rolls a 1 every round same as an infantry currently does. Choose your own casualties. This would make it EVEN simpler, and promote AAA EVEN more. But only AAA guns on defense get to roll AA dice at enemy aircraft
Just a thought…

Forget the German 88s lol, forget anti tank, those are far too specific terms/units for a grand strategic game such as A&A 1940
They would have a place in A&A miniatures, and smaller tactical games such as D-day and battle of the bulge

[baron Münchhausen]

About this:

The first round, first strike is as usual and planes are destroyed.

The other rounds, AAA can still rolls @1/6 preemptively against up to 3 targets but instead of destroying a plane upon a hit, it is considered damaged and immediatly stop the battle.
Every plane hit by a AAA fire must quite the battle immediatly and have to land during NCM phase. Play it as an aerial retreat in an amphibious assault.

You said:

It is unnecessarily complex

I wasn’t trying to convince you to adopt anything about it.

It is 2 different ways of rationalizing AAA.

Your are developping toward a regular ground unit A1D1M1 with a special first shot defense @1 against 3 planes.
And I think you achieve a good job on it: it is now a somewhat very interesting fighting unit a kind of AAA division able to do combat move and other things.

(But for my part, I would keep the special rules about IC, NB, AB as an optional rule not much, because this one is in itself complex rule to operate in a tactical situation. And possible imbroglio, one AAA was forgot and not counted when it was time to allocate to a specific structure, etc.)

I’m working on a second form of specialize unit against aircrafts only, no more no less.
Keeping the same caracteristics as OOB AAA but letting firing first strike against 3 planes in other round is not so complex in itself.
The difference is the result after first round: force to retreat the hitted plane.

IMO, this peculiar rule is not so complex but I’m pondering about the outcomes?
Maybe it is rather this you find too complex?

That’s why I was asking your opinion.
Can it have a real impact on battles, so it can increase an interest in it without unbalancing the rest?
Or, in the contrary, it can only cut some few punchs on attack, so that doesn’t improve anything?

And it means keep it with real damage when a hit is scored.
Thus, for me, means going back to the AAA A0D0M1 always firing preemptively against up to 3 planes (max.: 1 roll/plane) at 1/18 odds.

[Jennifer]

Baron,

I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats.  Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Baron,

**I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats. ** Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know **some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane. **

Thanks for sharing your long and broad experience.
Because, when I usually play one side or the other surrender before that moment happens.

So it was a bad idea as I judged from your example.  :|

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Baron,

I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats.  Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane.

From your example, we can tell that an AAA which can be used as a regular unit defending @1 is not so unbalancing. Maybe there is 3 or 4 AAA at most on a capitol. Adding 3 or 4 @1, is not a major outbreak.

What about the regular AAA division A1D1M1 AAA preemptive attack vs 3 planes on first round promoted by Uncrustable? What is your opinion?
Can it be balanced at 5 IPCs?
Does it still requires an increase to 6 IPCs?

Should it becomes a uniformized ground unit as A1D1M1C5 AAA first strike on opening fire phase against 1 plane only?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Baron,

I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats.  Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane.

What is your evaluation of a AAA unit which fire at 1 out of 18 against 3 planes every round?

In the context of a 12 rounds of battle situation over a capitol city, if someone decides to keep AAA as long as possible during this long battle?

Is it still too unbalancing because it can keep 1 single unit 12 firing at a 1/18 which is 4 times more than a single 1/6 shot ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@Cmdr:

Baron,

I wouldn’t make it hit the plane means it retreats.  Hit the plane means the plane was HIT.  However, you can pull off a Memphis Belle if the owner of the plane can roll a 1 on the die.

It’s sort of a consolation prize for having 48 aa gun shots taken at your plane because it was in a LONG battle.  Okay, okay, maybe not 48 shots at that plane, but you know some of these battles for capitols can easily top 12 rounds of combat and if that AA Gun is there the whole time, or even most of the time, that’s 11 rolls at 1 on a 1d6 and the odds are REALLY good that at least ONE of those 11 shots are going to hit your plane.

What is your evaluation of a AAA unit which fire at 1 out of 18 against 3 planes every round?

In the context of a 12 rounds of battle situation over a capitol city, if someone decides to keep AAA as long as possible during this long battle?

Is it still too unbalancing because it can keep 1 single unit 12 firing at a 1/18 which is 4 times more than a single 1/6 shot ?

If it is the case, then it means that an ad hoc rule need to be produce to limit the number of rolls against planes.

The OOB rule on AAA fix it to 1 single shot at 1 out 6 odds against every plane providing we have enough AAA.

This odds against plane in itself is already too high in an historical accuracy point of view.
But it is the lowest possible rate in a single D6 system.

You if accept the introduction of a system base on 2D6 successive rolls we can reach odds from 1/36 to 5/36 and even higher.

To keep balance, do we need to  fix a limited number of defensive rolls against 1 single plane?

[Jennifer]

If 1 AA Gun got 1 Shot per round in opening fire, as long as there existed at least 1 attacking plane, then there would be no need to have the 1/6 chance of the plane surviving being shot.

What I read, and I may have misread, was that each gun would get up to 3 shots per round.  After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes (just using starting units, assuming no planes lost by Germany or if they were, they were rebuilt) so that’s:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up)
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
3 Shots round 8, No hits on average (rounding down)
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
2 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed rules.  That’s a SIGNIFICANT increase!  It’s way more than is necessary to turn the tide of battle in Russia, and Germany has to hope to crush Russia pretty darn quick to win the game as it is now.  (And hellz yes, I am keeping all four of those guns operational until it comes down to trading armored units or the number of attacking planes has been decimated to the point it’s not worth keeping them alive anymore!)

[baron Münchhausen]

Thank you for your answer, it helps a lot to see more clearly where this goes.
Your example fit whith no option on the table but it is a reference if AAA were all outs.

I borrow your post to insert it in my proposition:
@Cmdr:

If 1 AA Gun got 1 Shot per round in opening fire, as long as there existed at least 1 attacking plane, then there would be no need to have the 1/6 chance of the plane surviving being shot.

What I read, and I may have misread, was that each gun would get up to 3 shots per round.  After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes (just using starting units, assuming no planes lost by Germany or if they were, they were rebuilt) so that’s:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up)
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down)
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
3 Shots round 8, No hits on average (rounding down)
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)
2 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed rules. That’s a SIGNIFICANT increase!  It’s way more than is necessary to turn the tide of battle in Russia, and Germany has to hope to crush Russia pretty darn quick to win the game as it is now.  (And hellz yes, I am keeping all four of those guns operational until it comes down to trading armored units or the number of attacking planes has been decimated to the point it’s not worth keeping them alive anymore!)

Option 1: AAA, a hit after 1st round force plane to withdraw.
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average                     12/0     2 planes destroyed
10 Shots round 2, 2 hits on average (rounding up) 22/12   2 planes must retreat.
8 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average                         30/24  1 plane must retreat
7 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding down) 37/30  1 plane must retreat
6 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average (rounding down) 43/36  1 plane must retreat
5 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average                         48/42  1 plane must retreat
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     52/48  1 plane must retreat
3 Shots round 8, no hit on average (rounding down)55/54
3 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     58/54   1 plane must retreat
2 Shots round 10, no hit on average.                     60/60
            8 planes have retreated.

So you went from getting 2 hits on average with the current rules, to 10 hits on average with the proposed option 1.
This means Germany still kept  10 planes and only lose 2 planes.
But, there is only 2 planes on the battlefield.

Option 2:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average            2 planes destroyed
4 Shots round 2, 1hit on average (rounding up)      1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, no hit to keep the average: 2 hits/12 shots
4 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, no hit to keep the average            
4 Shots round 8, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, no hits on average.

Option 2 results:
Get 4 times regular casualities =  8 planes will be destroyed on average but 4 planes will still be on the battlefield.

Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less)  every round.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)   4/0   1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:        8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  12/6  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  16/12 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 5, no hit to keep the average:       20/18
4 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average                      24/18 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 7, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  28/24 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 8, no hit to keep the average:       32/30
4 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  36/30 1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 10, 1 hit on average (rounding up) 40/36 1 plane destroyed

Option 3 results:
Get 3.5 times regular casualities =  7 planes will be destroyed on average but 5 planes will still be on the battlefield.

Option 4:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round at 1/18 rates of casualities.
After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 12 planes:

12 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)        12/18  1 plane destroyed
11 Shots round 2, no hit on average (rounding down)  23/18
11 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)        34/36 1 plane destroyed
10 Shots round 4, no hit on average (rounding down)  44/36
10 Shots round 5, 1 hit on average                            54/54  1 plane destroyed
9 Shots round 6, 1 hit on average (rounding up)         63/72  1 plane destroyed
8 Shots round 7, no hit to keep the average :             71/72
8 Shots round 8, no hit on average (rounding down)   79/72
8 Shots round 9, 1 hit on average (rounding up)         87/72   1 plane destroyed
7 Shots round 10, no hit on average (rounding down)  94/90

Option 4 results:
5 planes will be destroyed on average and 7 planes will still be on the battlefield.

OOB rule (3 rolls@1 on 1st rnd only): 2 killed  10 remaining
Option 0 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd):     10 killed 2 remaining
Option 1 (3 rolls@1 after 1st rnd):     2 killed  2 stayin’ battle 8 compel to retreat planes
Option 2 (1 roll@1 after 1st rnd):      8 killed  4 remaining
Option 3 (1 roll@1 each rnd):           7 killed  4 remaining
Option 4 (3 rolls@1/18 always):        5 killed  7 remaining

Now we can better compare between them.

Do you think option 1 can still be viable and interesting purchase?
Since their is only 2 kills as OOB, but it can also hinder seriously an attacking Germany, for instance, by compeling all aircrafts being hit to withdraw from the battle. Some attacking punchs will be missing in combat for sure.

Planes are not destroyed, so no IPC directly lost but indirectly it is the case via the lack of airsupport to attack ennemy’s ground units  and causing less casualities than expected.

And what about option 4? Is it still too overpowering?
And we didn’t consider at all taking some AAA as casualities, which could be a very possible option in a long lasting battle, which could mean lesser odds to make casualities on planes.

[Jennifer]

Wait, I think you don’t have my retreat option correct.

Round 1, Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits.
Germany rolls 2d6 and has a 1/6 per hit plane that it was only damaged and not destroyed.
Round 1 normal combat occurs.

Round 2,  Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits again, for instance (10/12 rounding up)
Germany rolls 2d6 again.  etc

It’s only a chance per AA Gun hit that the German plane, in this scenario, is damaged and forced to retreat before initial combat begins.

And I think you missed an option:
AA Guns only they fire in each round of battle provided they have a valid target, but only once per round, per gun:
4 AA Guns on Moscow against 12 planes would be 4 shots round 1 etc until they were destroyed.

[baron Münchhausen]

@ Cmdr Jen
This is true, I will correct this in the earlier post.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Wait, I think you don’t have my retreat option correct.
Round 1, Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits.
Germany rolls 2d6 and has a 1/6 per hit plane that it was only damaged and not destroyed.
Round 1 normal combat occurs.

Round 2,  Russia gets 2 AA Gun hits again, for instance (10/12 rounding up)
Germany rolls 2d6 again.  etc

It’s only a chance per AA Gun hit that the German plane, in this scenario, is damaged and forced to retreat before initial combat begins.

And I think you missed an option:
AA Guns only they fire in each round of battle provided they have a valid target, but only once per round, per gun:
4 AA Guns on Moscow against 12 planes would be 4 shots round 1 etc until they were destroyed.

About your retreat option, it depends in which main option rule you performed it, except for option 1 which implies automatic “damage and opportunity to retreat” for each plane getting hit.

Option 0, 2 and 3 seems to be able to save 1 plane since their is near or more than 6 casualities.

For my part, I still prefer option 4, AAA always defending on 1/18 against up to 3 planes each round.
Maybe, I can somewhat limit is power by according preemptive strike only for the first round.
In this way, any plane hit after first round, can return fire before being discarded from the board.

So, on long multiple rounds battle AAA will get a little “Humph” compared to OOB defend @1.
But it doesn’t seems too much for me now.

Do you think it is well balance for an only antiaircraft unit which can be use every round?

[Jennifer]

I’d say, if you limit AA Guns to 1 shot every round there exists a legal target for them to shoot at, then I wouldn’t add any other rules or restrictions.  I think it’s really balanced at that point.  This, of course, still assumes you can choose to destroy the AA Gun as you would any other unit you are assigning damage too.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

I’d say, if you limit AA Guns to 1 shot every round there exists a legal target for them to shoot at, then I wouldn’t add any other rules or restrictions. I think it’s really balanced at that point.  This, of course, still assumes you can choose to destroy the AA Gun as you would any other unit you are assigning damage too.

Are you are talking about this option?
Option 3:
Each AAA gun would get up to 1 shot/1 plane (whichever is less)  every round.
Which is 3.5 more killer than OOB? :evil:

I think I’m (or my friends playing A&A are) more conservative.
I found option 4 a lesser killer with a 2.5 times killing rate of OOB.   8-)

I wasn’t talking about dice mecanics (as I said earlier, my friends already played with 2 dice rolls mecanics to determine if a target is hit or not.)

My only interrest is to find something near OOB ratio with much more utility and applications (like being able to fire each round).

If it’s true that you like option 3,
I would add this:
The only limitation, after the first round first strike: up to 1 additionnal roll @1 against the same plane for the remaining of the battle.

Following the table below, their is 11 planes remaining after first round.

To keep this rule up:  take dices apart and create a 11 dices pool, for example.

Every time AAA can shoot a plane, pick 1 dice from the pool. When their is no more dice, then AAA shots are over.
This means on the fourth round, their will be no more shots.
So in average, the killing rate is 3 planes (in 4 rounds) it is only 1 over the OOB 2 casualities in the same situation.

After a 10 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns at 4 planes only:

4 Shots round 1, 1 hit on average (rounding up)   4/0   1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 2, no hit to keep the average:        8/6
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  12/6  1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 4, 1 hit on average (rounding up)  16/12 1 plane destroyed

For me, it is the only way to reduce the casuality rate.

If I had choice, with this limitation of 1 roll/plane after first round, I would rather choose:
Option 2:
Each AAA gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.
The casualities could be around 4 planes in 4 rounds. Which is double casuality rate on average.

(Don’t forget that it is still possible that defender had to pick AAA as casuality earlier in the battle.)

Option 2:
Each gun would get up to 3 shots per round and 1 shot/rnd after first round.

After a 4 round battle for Moscow, that’s 4 AA Guns x3 = at 12 planes first time and 10 more individual shots after:

12 Shots round 1, 2 hits on average                    2 planes destroyed
4 Shots round 2, 1hit on average (rounding up)      1 plane destroyed
4 Shots round 3, 1 hit on average (rounding up)     1 plane destroyed
4 2 Shots round 4, no hit to keep the average