AA Guns

[Derek]

Yes it would help Russia, and the allies as a whole

But currently the axis are favored so this would only reduce the bids

[Jennifer]

Anything that reduces bids is a good thing, in my mind.  An ideal situation would be one in which neither side needs a bid at all.  Of course, this isn’t chess or risk or checkers, so it is really hard to get to the ideal, in my opinion.

I’d have to say I would be in favor of the following:

AA Guns:

• Cost 6 IPC (same as a tank.)
• Fire once per AA Gun, per round in normal combat (like infantry fire once per round until killed or the battle is terminated) but only if there is at least one attacking aircraft present.
• AA Guns may be assigned hits as like any other unit on the board.
• AA Guns may move up to 1 space if towed by a mechanized infantry unit (2 if said unit is paired with an armored unit.)  Else, they cannot move.
• AA Guns may fire up to 3 times per gun, in opening fire, during a strategic bombing raid. (like they are now, except it only applies to bombing raids.)
• An AA Gun may be added to the purchase price of a complex for an additional 3 IPC
  Change to complexes/bases
• Bases and complexes no longer come with built in AA Guns
• Airbase/Naval Base prices are now 10 IPC each
• Minor Complex prices are now 9 IPC each
• Major Complexes are still 15 IPC, but upgrading a minor to Major is only 10 IPC

The idea here is to give more power to the gun, make it riskier to move it around, and give the allies an edge since Russia can move the guns up before battle starts and have time to retreat the trucks, whereas Germany has to bring them in on guns and will usually be in range of counter attack before they can pull the trucks back out.

[BJCard]

Thought Major complexes cost 30 IPCs, where are you getting 15?

Regarding battles- what if both the attacker and defender have aircraft, does the AA gun still fire?

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

• AA Guns may move up to 1 space if towed by a mechanized infantry unit (2 if said unit is paired with an armored unit.)  Else, they cannot move.

Ok this is silly and needlessly over complicated
Other than that though I like where your going
Also major ICs cost 30 OOB
I would rather keep it simple though

Use all current OOB rules (G40) for AA guns, with the following exceptions:
-AA cost 6 IPC
-No built in AA
-after opening round of normal AA fire, AA guns may continue to fire during normal combat, providing there are enemy aircraft present, one AA dice per plane OR one AA dice per AA gun, whichever is less

So AA guns have 3 shots at enemy aircraft as per OOB rules
Then once the battle starts each AA gun is effectivly reduced to a single AA dice

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

@Cmdr:

• AA Guns may move up to 1 space if towed by a mechanized infantry unit (2 if said unit is paired with an armored unit.)  Else, they cannot move.

Ok this is silly and needlessly over complicated
Other than that though I like where your going
Also major ICs cost 30 OOB
I would rather keep it simple though

Use all current OOB rules (G40) for AA guns, with the following exceptions:
-AA cost 6 IPC
-No built in AA
-after opening round of normal AA fire, AA guns may continue to fire during normal combat, providing there are enemy aircraft present, one AA dice per plane OR one AA dice per AA gun, whichever is less

So AA guns have 3 shots at enemy aircraft as per OOB rules
Then once the battle starts each AA gun is effectivly reduced to a single AA dice

Does “normal” mean no more preemptive? or “opening round of” mean first strike attack?

“AA guns may continue to fire during normal combat”, does it imply without preemptive strike against plane?

Are you taking aside “Active AA gun” for this proposition (or forget to mention it)?

This option is really a killer for planes: after 3 rounds, around 50% killing at least 1 plane.

The OOB fix this around 16.67% for a whole battle:
rising the cost from 5 to 6 IPCs will not counter-balance this.

I suggest an adjustment for taking in balance the ex-built-in  AAA, no value, no move until paying 2 IPCs/each for converting them into mobile AA artillery with 1 hit value.

As said earlier by Cmdr Jen, adjust all structures to add real AAA unit on the board: Major IC gives 2 AAA / Minor IC, AirB and NB= 1AAA.
@Cmdr:

1. In opening fire the AA Gun gets 1 shot at each plane up to a maximum of 3 planes per AA Gun.
2. There are no built in AA Gun defenses on complexes and bases.
3. Add 1 AA Gun to the board for each Air Base, Naval Base and Minor Industrial Complex on the board, 2 AA Guns for each Major Industrial Complex on the board.
4. AA Guns cost 6 IPC, same as a Tank.

About the price for new IC, AB and NB raise their cost by 2 IPCs and let them get 1AAA when put on the board.

[baron Münchhausen]

@BJCard:

There’s already a lack of strategic bombing in the game anyway, why are you guys making it harder to do??

@Cmdr:

Uncrustable,

Russia starts with 4 of the 5 guns that Baron mentioned in opening setup.  Cost for Russia is for 1 AA Gun.

(back to lurker mode.)

I think Always Active and Active AA gun means no more SBR plain and simple.
Because, all other battle are made on the front line. It means that the first ennemy territory is the only AAA fire which come against attacking planes.

Under normal circumstances, no one will risk an attack with aircrafts only against ground units from rear territory. Our Russia with 5 AAA scenario can only suppose a SBR and nothing else.

[Derek]

Yes I said ‘after’
So AA fires like normal OOB rules, and then participates in normal combat
But in normal combat each AA can only roll one dice
And only vs aircraft

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Yes it would help Russia, and the allies as a whole

But currently the axis are favored so this would only reduce the bids

The more I think about Always Active AA gun, besides making SBR a costly adventure, is about launching bombers from Scotland toward Russia in NCM. And more I think about it and more I see it as a cosmetics change because it didn’t have many possible effects (except for the few SBR).

If any German’s AAA is present in Archangel and Novgorod and Nenetsia, then UK’s StrB will have to take a roll against them.

In a 1942.2 scenario, it takes Karelia and Archangel and West Russia to do the same.

[Jennifer]

Not sure what I was thinking, yea … majors…sure…no one buys em, lol, do see em upgraded in every game (USA…duh.)

Anyway…

3x in opening fire per gun AND shots in combat is too much. 
Towing them isn’t anymore complicated than mech going double distance if with a tank or ab adding 1 movement point AND allowing scramble AND allowing intercept.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Not sure what I was thinking, yea … majors…sure…no one buys em, lol, do see em upgraded in every game (USA…duh.)

Anyway…

**3x in opening fire per gun AND shots in combat is too much.  **
Towing them isn’t anymore complicated than mech going double distance if with a tank or ab adding 1 movement point AND allowing scramble AND allowing intercept.

I think this question may come in handy…
@Baron:

Which 1 AAA is the strongest?
1-OOB: 1 single first strike @1 vs 3 planes (up to 1 attack max /plane) vs

2-AAA as a regular unit: unlimited attack @1 vs 1 plane and no preemptive? vs

3-AAA: unlimited regular strike @1 vs 2 planes, up to 2 rolls max/plane?

How about a first strike shot against only 1 plane/AAA, then AA guns may continue to fire during normal combat, providing there are enemy aircraft present, one AA dice per plane OR one AA dice per AA gun, whichever is less.

(Don’t forget: If you split Built-in AA gun, USSR gain: 4AAA+ 8AA to up-grade in AAA [2x8=16 IPCs] In Novgorod and Russia you both get now 2AAA+3=5 AA guns.)

Cmdr Jen, what do you think about this:
For moving AAA, they kept move 1, but give them M2 when paired with MechInf during a NCM.

[Derek]

@Cmdr:

Not sure what I was thinking, yea … majors…sure…no one buys em, lol, do see em upgraded in every game (USA…duh.)

Anyway…

3x in opening fire per gun AND shots in combat is too much. 
Towing them isn’t anymore complicated than mech going double distance if with a tank or ab adding 1 movement point AND allowing scramble AND allowing intercept.

It is retarded.
Why mech? Infantry are incabaple? Tanks ?
And why can’t the AA division/battalion move on it’s own? Does it not know what the wheel is?
How silly
And needlessly overrcomplicated because AA already has a movement restriction (can only move during noncombatant)

[Jennifer]

And because mech can magically get double the gas mileage and speed when they are next to a tank that should, by all rights, get half the speed and a third of the gas mileage.  lol.  Not to mention, the poor mech unit already has very small utility in the game being, essentially, meals on wheels, at least now they are meals on wheels that can move the AA Gun 1 or 2 territories.

And no, I can’t picture 5 or 6 guys carrying http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Bofors_M1927_76mm_AA_gun_Suomenlinna.JPG/800px-Bofors_M1927_76mm_AA_gun_Suomenlinna.JPG that into battle, I don’t care how many wheels you put on it!  Hell, I’m only thinking a “mechanized” infantry unit because maybe it’s mechanized because it’s actually a train!  If not, it’s probably a large truck and it’s only dragging the cannon, while the infantry walk along side pissing and moaning about walking instead of riding the trucks - and probably in the rain going up hill both ways (and yes, if you go to Vermont they CAN walk uphill BOTH WAYS, don’t ask me how they violate the laws of physics, but they do!)

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

And because mech can magically get double the gas mileage and speed when they are next to a tank that should, by all rights, get half the speed and a third of the gas mileage.  lol. Not to mention, the poor mech unit already has very small utility in the game being, essentially, meals on wheels, at least now they are meals on wheels that can move the AA Gun 1 or 2 territories.

If not, it’s probably a large truck and it’s only dragging the cannon, while the infantry walk along side pissing and moaning about walking instead of riding the trucks - and probably in the rain going up hill both ways (and yes, if you go to Vermont they CAN walk uphill BOTH WAYS, don’t ask me how they violate the laws of physics, but they do!)

How do you play with MechInf? They have a basic M2, no?
So, in a CM, you can travel 1 friendly territory before fighting in the second tt, even when MechInf is alone.
Isn’t it?
MechInf need to be paired with Tank only when traveling 2 ennemy territories (blitzing).

By the way, I will not make any AAA a basic M0. I want to improve them.
That’s why I find the other option far more interesting: gain M2 in NCM when paired with MechInf.

[Jennifer]

1 territory when attacking, 2 with armored unit along for the ride.  Does not include a friendly territory move through.  2 territories when by itself.  Still, why are they magically getting double the distance into enemy territory just because they have an old rust bucket sucking down the gas, making a lot of noise, and driving slower then molasses going uphill in winter?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

1 territory when attacking, 2 with armored unit along for the ride.  Does not include a friendly territory move through.  2 territories when by itself.  Still, why are they magically getting double the distance into enemy territory just because they have an old rust bucket sucking down the gas, making a lot of noise, and driving slower then molasses going uphill in winter?

If I follow you, I play wrong when a single MechInf:

in a CM, travel 1 friendly territory before fighting in the second tt,

Isn’t it?

For your second question, I think it is an historical and tactical matter which is decisive here:
motorized infantry never made a blitzkrieg alone (they need more road/ have not the same mobility than armor, same attacking punch, etc.) You need some vanguard Panzer divisions first to make a hole in a defensive position. Infantry must get down the vehicule, and walk to fight not an armor division. That’s how I rationalize it.

[Jennifer]

Bear with me, I don’t get a lot of sleep anymore, puppy and all.

Mechanized Infantry have a base move of one territory in combat, except when paired with a tank.
Mechanized Infantry have a base move of two territories in non-combat.
Mechanized Infantry may move through one friendly territory on the way to attacking an enemy territory during combat movement.

So basically, why can they move through multiple territories just because a tank happens to be present?  Indigenous population ran out of sticky bombs suddenly, so there is no partisan resistance to drive through?  Or is it because that panzer tank over there, with it’s top speed of half that of a jeep, is making the jeep drive twice as fast?

Panzer Speed: 33 mph - highway
Truck Speed: 65 mph - highway

So why is the panzer, which is going half the speed of the panzerwagon (I am taking a little speed off the wagon assuming that machine gun might be causing a bit of drag here) making the panzerwagon go twice as fast?

If that’s the case, think of how fast that panzerwagon’s going to be with an AA Gun being dragged along behind it!  It might set an all new land speed record!

*Disclaimer, mph numbers come from wikipedia

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Bear with me, I don’t get a lot of sleep anymore, puppy and all.

Mechanized Infantry have a base move of one territory in combat, except when paired with a tank.
Mechanized Infantry have a base move of two territories in non-combat.
Mechanized Infantry may move through one friendly territory on the way to attacking an enemy territory during combat movement.

So basically, why can they move through multiple territories just because a tank happens to be present?  Indigenous population ran out of sticky bombs suddenly, so there is no partisan resistance to drive through?  Or is it because that panzer tank over there, with it’s top speed of half that of a jeep, is making the jeep drive twice as fast?

Panzer Speed: 33 mph - highway
Truck Speed: 65 mph - highway
So why is the panzer, which is going half the speed of the panzerwagon (I am taking a little speed off the wagon assuming that machine gun might be causing a bit of drag here) making the panzerwagon go twice as fast?

If that’s the case, think of how fast that panzerwagon’s going to be with an AA Gun being dragged along behind it!  It might set an all new land speed record!

*Disclaimer, mph numbers come from wikipedia

Ouf! I can breath now.

With the double truck speed, you are adding another historical reason to be able to travel 2 territory with AAA in a NCM when paired with an MechInf.

For not allowing MechInf blitzing 2 territories by himself, I think it is an historical and tactical matter which is decisive here:
motorized infantry never made a blitzkrieg alone (they need more road/ have not the same mobility than armor, same attacking punch, etc.) You need some vanguard Panzer divisions first to make a hole in a defensive position. Infantry must get down the vehicule, and walk to fight not an armor division. That’s how I rationalize it.

Maybe you can HR this about MechInf on the basis of pure truck speed.
For my part, I still prefer the actual OOB for blitzing.

[Jennifer]

To my knowledge, and admittedly WW2 was NOT my focus in my studies, mechanizing infantry was not a matter of blitzing, but a way to move infantry from the rear to the front and casualties from the front to the rear.

When I first heard of this unit, I thought “cool, a way to transport your infantry by land!  I bet a truck will carry 2 infantry like a transport can, but on land instead of water!”  I was not happy to learn it was just a unit and couldn’t move infantry at all.  Hell, it still makes more sense to me that an infantry should be able to NCM two spaces if paired with a mechanized infantry and not bring tanks into the equation at all!

And yes, I was thinking the AA Gun could be dragged two spaces with a Mech Infantry or no spaces without one.  Either go, or no go.

[baron Münchhausen]

About moving AAA on transport,

I would make this House Rule:
you can bring AAA on board an attacking TT along with 1 Inf.
So you can outboard the Inf in the amphibious assault.
But, you must wait the NCM, if you win the territory (of course), to offload the 1 AAA.

It is a slight bend of the actual rule, and it improve just a little the mobility of AAA.

What do you think?

[Jennifer]

Works for me.

Then again, I’ve house ruled Battleships having AA Gun ability since Axis and Allies Revised, Enhanced was released.  Just makes the BB worth buying in my mind.  (they fire their AA guns in opening fire like a real AA Gun would, but after that, they act like a battleship does per the rules.)  Otherwise, you’re far better off with Cruisers.

And yes, I know, it was the Aircraft Carriers that had the uber AA Gun defense screens.  Got it.  But there’s no issue convincing people to buy ACs, it’s the BBs I rarely see being put down on the board!  And since they are a capitol warship whose only redeeming quality that I see is that they take two hits to sink, and usually, those hits are by blind submarine gunners who get shot in the head because they hit the useless battleship instead of the destroyer that is now coming to sink them, giving them an AA Gun screen seemed appropriate somehow.