Face-to-Face Tournament Rules

[squirecam]

@BushidoBlitz:

Try 3 stages on the chess clock:
1st stage - must complete 6 rounds in 250 minutes (~42 min rounds or 7 min/country/turn), 125 minutes per team; if a team times out, they lose all 9-9 VC ties at end of game
2nd stage – must complete the 7th round in 54 minutes, 27 minutes per team; if a team times out, they must win by 11-7 VC or better at end of game; otherwise, they lose
3rd stage – must complete the 8th round in 42 minutes, 21 minutes per team; if a team times out, they immediately lose

Is this thinking time, or rolling the dice time or what?

I’d hate to see someone lose because rolling dice took too long.

[squirecam]

@miamiumike:

Back on the topic of clocks - I think, for starters (subject to review and play-testing)…this is for AA50…

1. 6 Hour game - evenly split 3/3 between Axis and Allies
2. The game should still have a minimum number of rounds expected to be played using a reasonable average - might be 7 rounds, 8 - whatever is reasonable.
3. If you run out of time completely before the minimum number of rounds - you DO lose.
4. Each side would need maybe 15 minutes of extended time (kinda like Soccer does it) whereby if you have used up your 3 hours, but have completed the minimum number of rounds, it will give you a chance to get to the end of the CURRENT round.
5. If at the end of the round (assuming you passed the minimum number) one side has run out of time, the game ends at that point. Standard VC apply - but I like the idea of the team that ran out of time losing the VC tie-breaker.

I think it is important to have a minimum number of rounds in there and only if you run out of time before that you automatically lose.

MM

If people play 6-8 rounds already (and they do) then what exactly does the chess clock add? People already know playing “slower” than that could result in a warning…

[DizzKneeLand33]

@questioneer:

1. The stages is a lot to keep track of.  Only the more expensive clocks can do that.

Actually, that’s not quite true.  For a chess game in which, for example, there are two time controls, the first time control ends at 6:00, and the second one at 7:00.  Now, the easiest way to use that is to say that the second time control lasts an hour.  However, if you wanted to say it lasted 45 minutes, you set the time forward 15 minutes for each player after the first time control is reached (number of moves/number of rounds).  Then instead of an extra hour to reach 7:00, it is only 45 minutes.

Also, there is the chance that people will play faster than the clock, isn’t there?

The stages posted by BB could be slightly modified.  For example, instead of 250 minutes for the first 6 rounds, you could make it 240, and rounds 7-8 (or 9, or 10) could be an extra hour.  So, you start the clocks at 4:00 and then you must complete your first 6 rounds by 6:00, and then the remaining rounds by 7:00.

But there are MANY different possibilities….

[squirecam]

@DizzKneeLand33:

@questioneer:

1. The stages is a lot to keep track of.�  Only the more expensive clocks can do that.

Actually, that’s not quite true.  For a chess game in which, for example, there are two time controls, the first time control ends at 6:00, and the second one at 7:00.  Now, the easiest way to use that is to say that the second time control lasts an hour.  However, if you wanted to say it lasted 45 minutes, you set the time forward 15 minutes for each player after the first time control is reached (number of moves/number of rounds).  Then instead of an extra hour to reach 7:00, it is only 45 minutes.

Also, there is the chance that people will play faster than the clock, isn’t there?

The stages posted by BB could be slightly modified.  For example, instead of 250 minutes for the first 6 rounds, you could make it 240, and rounds 7-8 (or 9, or 10) could be an extra hour.  So, you start the clocks at 4:00 and then you must complete your first 6 rounds by 6:00, and then the remaining rounds by 7:00.

But there are MANY different possibilities….

Whatever the “last” round is, it (or the round before it) usually takes longer than the standard time, due to discussion, maneuvering, etc.

[miamiumike]

Interesting ideas all - but - keep in mind as well, that the last thing we want to do is make the working of the clocks complicated or open to questions. It needs to be clean, easy and brainless how to work them - IMHO…

MM

[questioneer]

@squirecam:

So you throw out a bunch of attacks after being warned? Really?

But since you mentioned it, I dont recall any juvenile challenge. I do recall beating you at FTF revised, FWIW. Or maybe that was Q2…

I find it hard to discuss anything civil with you when your acting like a 5 year old. Perhaps you should apologize.

You’ve been warned also Mr. Troll

You call that an attack???… :roll: :roll: :roll:

You don’t recall the challenge…right.  BTW I don’t think we’ve ever played Revised together or any game for that matter.

[DizzKneeLand33]

True, the last rounds may take longer, but remember that you get to save up any “unused” time and use it later if you have it.

Also, if there are a couple of capitals down, you’d still have longer on a “per country” basis.  But all of that is where playtesting would have to come in.

[questioneer]

@miamiumike:

Questioneer - you can kiss my you know what, you jerk. Perhaps if you had more of the facts of what you were talking about you would make yourself look less like a jerk from time to time.

I invite you to play me or any of� the ‘GenCon guys’ in a game of AA50 using the rules we have, and while no victory is guaranteed, I promise you that you would find a challenging and interesting game on your hands.

So - before you start making insulting comments about the level of play from people you have never played and apply that comment to ALL players even though I was the one who lost - you might at least consider having all the facts before you open your big fat mouth.

Maybe not so respectively,
MM

ATTACK ATTACK!!!  I feel attacked…my feelings are hurt…someone help me. :cry: :cry: :cry:

Yes MM, I knew the facts, Garg told me, me and several others had a good laugh by PM. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[questioneer]

@DizzKneeLand33:

@questioneer:

1. The stages is a lot to keep track of.�  Only the more expensive clocks can do that.

Actually, that’s not quite true.  For a chess game in which, for example, there are two time controls, the first time control ends at 6:00, and the second one at 7:00.  Now, the easiest way to use that is to say that the second time control lasts an hour.  However, if you wanted to say it lasted 45 minutes, you set the time forward 15 minutes for each player after the first time control is reached (number of moves/number of rounds).  Then instead of an extra hour to reach 7:00, it is only 45 minutes.

Also, there is the chance that people will play faster than the clock, isn’t there?

The stages posted by BB could be slightly modified.  For example, instead of 250 minutes for the first 6 rounds, you could make it 240, and rounds 7-8 (or 9, or 10) could be an extra hour.  So, you start the clocks at 4:00 and then you must complete your first 6 rounds by 6:00, and then the remaining rounds by 7:00.

But there are MANY different possibilities….

I understand what you are saying, but its best to just set the clock for 3 hours a side and go.  If someone forgets to hit their clock then the opponents is running on the other players time- that’s the penalty.  Its not hard guys, its worked for chess tournaments worldwide for over 100 years.

A better solution is to set the clock with a delay (most inexpensive clocks do this).  2hr per side with a 60 second delay = 3hours per side.  Do any of you play club rated tournament chess (USCF or FIDE)???  If you do, you get this and can help me explain.

[squirecam]

@questioneer:

@squirecam:

So you throw out a bunch of attacks after being warned? Really?

But since you mentioned it, I dont recall any juvenile challenge. I do recall beating you at FTF revised, FWIW. Or maybe that was Q2…

I find it hard to discuss anything civil with you when your acting like a 5 year old. Perhaps you should apologize.

You’ve been warned also Mr. Troll

You call that an attack???… :roll: :roll: :roll:

You don’t recall the challenge…right.�  BTW I don’t think we’ve ever played Revised together or any game for that matter.

So I beat someone pretending to be you? �  ok…

I stopped saying anything once DJensen said something. You continued to escalate…

No shame in losing. Just in the way your acting.

You want this thread derailed, IMHO…

[questioneer]

If your gonna go “per country” basis then the poker timer is what you want.  I think I figured this out 2 ways about 4 years ago when I presented the idea to Greg.

It like 7min a side or you wanted it weighted 3 hrs a side then divide by 2 players (Axis) and 3 players (Allies) I think Allies got like 6 min a side and Axis got 9min a side.

It is another way to do it but nothing beats the simplicity of setting the clock and just playing as they do in chess.

BB, you said that you hated losing “on time”.  You do that anyway in the current system.  In fact I remember when I played at GenCon I lost in my last round “on time”.

The clock only ensures that both sides use equal time of the 6 hours it won’t alleviate the fact that more time is needed.

IMHO I suggest that you use the current rules and the chess clock and …

AA41- 2hour time limit total (G-60)     60min per side
AA42- 6hour time limit total (G-180)    180min per side
AA50- 7hour time limit total (G-210)    210min per side
G40 -  12hour time limit total (G-360)  360min per side

For the 42 I would make LA worth something (that’s BS) and/or consider Honolulu as a VC (I know it was a mistake).  There is no reason for the US Pacific side to have no bonus points.  Someone please explain this to me.  It reduces strategic possibilities and give Japan no motivation to do anything in the Pacific.

I have always had a beef with the AA50 GenCon format but its not worth mentioning.  That game is behind me now.  Most players here at AA.org play G40 and will probably play a lot of AA42 (2nd ed) now- or they play AA50 the way it was meant to be played.  I would assume most players here who would be interested in coming to GenCon will primarily be interested in the formats for AA42 and G40 and less with AA50 and AA41.

[questioneer]

@squirecam:

@questioneer:

@squirecam:

So you throw out a bunch of attacks after being warned? Really?

But since you mentioned it, I dont recall any juvenile challenge. I do recall beating you at FTF revised, FWIW. Or maybe that was Q2…

I find it hard to discuss anything civil with you when your acting like a 5 year old. Perhaps you should apologize.

You’ve been warned also Mr. Troll

You call that an attack???… :roll: :roll: :roll:

You don’t recall the challenge…right.� � BTW I don’t think we’ve ever played Revised together or any game for that matter.

So I beat someone pretending to be you? � � ok…

I stopped saying anything once DJensen said something. You continued to escalate…

No shame in losing. Just in the way your acting.

You want this thread derailed, IMHO…

Honestly, all I remember you chickened on playing an AA50 game that’s it way back when.  Otherwise, I don’t remember playing a game at all.

Interested in a G40 TripleA game???

[questioneer]

Another thing that was mentioned was that the chess clocks may deter any newbies from playing in the FTF tourny.  This could be true, but on the other hand when I see the word “tournament” I’m thinking that it is somewhat competitive, otherwise just play a “free play” game with people.

[squirecam]

@questioneer:

@squirecam:

@questioneer:

@squirecam:

So you throw out a bunch of attacks after being warned? Really?

But since you mentioned it, I dont recall any juvenile challenge. I do recall beating you at FTF revised, FWIW. Or maybe that was Q2…

I find it hard to discuss anything civil with you when your acting like a 5 year old. Perhaps you should apologize.

You’ve been warned also Mr. Troll

You call that an attack???… :roll: :roll: :roll:

You don’t recall the challenge…right.� � BTW I don’t think we’ve ever played Revised together or any game for that matter.

So I beat someone pretending to be you? � � ok…

I stopped saying anything once DJensen said something. You continued to escalate…

No shame in losing. Just in the way your acting.

You want this thread derailed, IMHO…

Honestly, all I remember you chickened on playing an AA50 game that’s it way back when.  Otherwise, I don’t remember playing a game at all.

Interested in a G40 TripleA game???

I dont think so. Your tone in general and your conduct in this thread pretty much guarantees a no.

[squirecam]

@DizzKneeLand33:

True, the last rounds may take longer, but remember that you get to save up any “unused” time and use it later if you have it.

Also, if there are a couple of capitals down, you’d still have longer on a “per country” basis. � But all of that is where playtesting would have to come in.

You wont get to a capital in most games in 6 rounds. Perhaps Moscow. But thats it. Its just the time for adding VXC and calculating IPC that takes up more time.

[questioneer]

Sorry guys, this may put a damper on the whole chess clock idea.

I’ve been involved with tournament chess for years so you gotta trust me on this.  Other club players can confirm also however.

Here is a site that sells chess clocks, probably one if not the best site to get clocks.
http://www.wholesalechess.com/chess/chess_clocks/digital_chess_clocks/saitek_chess_competition_game_clock_to_scholastic_blue

This clock is the best for your money- its been selling for quite a few years now.  There are cheaper clocks but they are pretty much junk as I have had these and they break within the year.  Some reviews are even reporting that they are broken on arrival with the $20 clocks.

The link above is the cheapest durable clock (I have this also- its lasted 6 years so far) but as you can see its $40 not $20.  There are better clocks also but the price goes up from there.

So if GenCon or players are not willing to invest in a $40 clock, then we can stop this conversation right here.  That being said, chess clocks are the way to go in playing tourny AA IMHO.

Just some food for thought.

[squirecam]

@Gargantua:

Will you write a check for the clocks?

You know what. YES. I would cut the cheque and pay the bill.

Provided you actually listen to fan input, instead of -relegating- people to the “suggestion box”. Hold me to it.

I already solved this problem. Our rich benefactor has agreed to purchase said clocks. In fact, I assume they are bought and paid for and on their way to Gencon already……

[questioneer]

@squirecam:

@Gargantua:

Will you write a check for the clocks?

You know what. YES. I would cut the cheque and pay the bill.

Provided you actually listen to fan input, instead of -relegating- people to the “suggestion box”. Hold me to it.

I already solved this problem. Our rich benefactor has agreed to purchase said clocks. In fact, I assume they are bought and paid for and on their way to Gencon already……

We in that case lets buy the Chronos clocks at $90 :-D

[Imperious Leader]

no. this:

http://www.uscfsales.com/product_p/clkdez-bb.htm
$29 bucks

[smo63]

@djensen:

I just wanted to get the conversation started regarding face-to-face tournament rules. I would prefer to start the conversation with those who have run or played in face-to-face tournaments to set the tone, from experience about what does and does not work. I’m sure it will depend on the game version as well.

Since it has been over 5 years since I’ve played in a tournament, I’ll refrain from comments until I’ve either playtested suggestions or have returned from GenCon 2012.

Ding, ding, ding…I guess it is time for me to chime in.  I can’t believe someone did ask where in the hell I was.

OK, now, for my viewpoint and Dave, let me know if I am missing something here or I am out of line, but basically, you asked about FTF tournament rules, from experience what works and what does not…

How can Questioneer turn this thread into Chess clock timer issue. We don’t play with Chess clocks now.  They don’t come in the games for tournaments use, so, just curious why doesn’t everyone jump on Q when he brings up something completely irrelevant to the topic at hand?

Just my thought on the subject…

Peace,
Gregory J. Smorey
Axis & Allies Tournament Director/GM - GEN CON/Origins/Spring Gathering